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Henry Stone

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Henry Stone last won the day on May 16 2015

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  1. I am going to very carefully enter into this conversation, because there is, indeed, an aura of Escobar fairy dust to this. But with caffeine stuffed into everything, these things are likely to happen these days... So I'll give you the benefit of doubt, and assume that you are NOT (A) a troll, (B) a creationist antagonizer, © crazy or on drugs, nor (D) dumb. I will assume that you are a sensible, well-meaning person with a serious question to ask. I state this very clearly because I want you to know that I am aware I might be wrong. I simply choose to believe that this has serious, honest merit to it. Okay, here we go: I tried to catch all that you wrote, and it seems to make sense. Only not quite the sense you probably think. Firstly, no, you are not describing a paradox. The definition of a paradox is that it can neither be true nor false (ponder/google the classic "this sentence is a lie" example for the entire main point of paradoxes). What you are describing is a mix of other things, foremost of them a causal loop (other names for it exist, this is just the one I learned). Basically, things seem to repeat themselves in a pattern that seems logical on the small scale, but insane on the large scale. Like on a small scale, having a really good time at a party seeming like the way to live life, but on the larger scale, it means hangovers, wasted time and probably bad decisions. You're just describing a socio-economic causal loop. And yes, I apologize the pretend-fancy language, but I have no other words to sum it up. History has a tendency to repeat itself, we know that. People make the same mistakes, because after two generations, the mistakes are forgotten, and people can make them again. That is why we have boom-and-bust markets, and areas that circulate between peace and war in outright crazy ways. This is basic history knowledge, so yes, there you have a point. The second thing, however, is not so much a point you're making as a statement. You believe in Creationism and Evolution at the same time, you say. There are three kinds of people I know of who do this: Evolutionists seeking an understanding of Faith, Creationists seeking an understanding of Science, and people exposed to both Faith and Science from an early age on and living with them both, perhaps trying to reconcile them. I belong somewhat in the first category, while I believe (from your story) that you belong in the second. I believe this in part because you talk about very advanced science as if it is spiritual. It is not. Quantum Theory is a bunch of math and theoretical concepts. It has nothing to do with a higher purpose or deep insight into the universe (although some scientists like to claim it does), it is simply a study of how matter works. It will not show you Great Truths any more than understanding geology will. Spiritual people seeking to adapt science into their worldview almost always make that mistake. To be honest, people trying to explain comics and science fiction also have a habit to do that. Congratulations, you walk amongst the geeks (as do I, by the way). The real problem here is that you're trying to make your effort to understand science from a spiritual standpoint look like a causal loop. That won't (usually) work. The "failure" of people to understand either Faith (spirituality, creationism, etc.) or Science (evolution, quantum theory) has very little to do with society being caught in a causal loop, it has to do with simply making two different things fit together. I believe firmly that Evolution and Creationism (though probably not Young Earthers) can mix, if both sides look at things from a calm standpoint, but that's a result of my own contemplations, it has nothing to do with society being unable to understand this or that or anything. The aggression on the two topics, sure, that smells of causal loops, since people keep forgetting that different things have fought silly battles with no real results before. But you want an answer to something you're trying to merge (Creationist Faith and Evolutionary Science/Quantum Theory). That has nothing to do with history or society or the cosmos. That's all about you. And trust me, that sentence is weird for me to write, but yes, it's all about you. My suggestion is to look at your, sorry, rant, and pick it apart yourself. There are valid questions in there, some of which I also struggle with (mentally, not emotionally, which I think you do). But you are tangling them up by asking them in a big mess and then trying to answer them at the same time. So I challenge you: Make a comment here. In that comment, ask no more than five questions. Each question can only use ten or fewer words. And you cannot try to suggest answers, at all. You are biting over soooo damned much. It needs to be simplified, or you just sound like a tinfoilhatter. This is written with respect to all involved. Please regard and treat it as such.
  2. Since opinions are being repeated (not a bad thing, btw; summaries are Happy Things): I stand by my opinion of Kill It With Logic. No government/corporate/Illuminati/UN actions to seize the spot means the supernatural properties are fake. But the discussion remains an interesting insight into human behaviour. I still like you guys, don't worry ;)
  3. This discussion reminds me of my work with 3rd graders. I'm tempted to ask people to tone down the namecalling, but I feel it might end up being me called names instead. The evidence from the mystery spot is flimsy, and as stated before, anything with such magical powers would instantly be locked away by now by government or shady corporations trying to do Stuff with it. It exists in captivity or in secret, not in the wild and open. That it would be nothing but a tourist attraction(!!) is an utterly obscene thought. Thereby not said that none of the effects may exist out there, but this is a definite "I Want To Believe" moment. That said, Gpa, if you want to debunk things, you gotta do better than that. Your evidence is great if talking to a non-believer ("yeah, makes sense,"), but you're not talking to non-believers. There's a reason TV isn't completely flooded with MythBusters clones; busting a myth so that True Believers will accept the findings is damn hard work!
  4. To get back on track, I was thinking that maybe, just maybe, Larry got into a legal conflict over the rights to a lot of things. He saw the value of holding onto the story and the rights for it, but could not get all, or was maybe threatened with being outed if he did take it all. And now the parties involved have been disagreeing for all that time what to use the publicity for. If it is a hiaz, as I thoroughy believe, it seems someone should have profited more grandly from it. Or maybe they just lost their nerves. I wonder what it would take for someone to grab the throne of Titor again and run with it, for fun and/or profit. People seem more skeptical about returners claiming to be Titor, than of the original story itself.
  5. Yes, it is a doosey :eek: Anyway, I'll give it a try. Remember, this is a creative challenge, so if your first, second, third, etc. is not your best, you can just do another :geek: #1: Hello, my name is Bryon Pumling, and I come from the year 3201. I am/was/will be a field physicist, studying unusual physics events close up. Mostly, I deal with unexpected solar activities or electrical storms (in space or planetside), but the last decade or so, I have been part of TEI, the Time Evaluation Initiative. As such, I have little to no family (they prefer those kinds of recruits), and have dedicated myself very much to my job/studies. Although not actually military, I act as an advisor to the military on projects related to abnormal physics. In comparison to your time, I would say that I am 45% physicist (specializing in astrophysics and quantum mechanics), 45% engineer, and 10% philosophical consultant (scientific, not ethical). The last decade and a half I have lived on five different military bases/installations. #2: For about a decade, I have studied the effects of time travel on the local time, i.e. how sending someone through time affects the time and place that the person gets sent from. Time travel is still a very new invention (about 20 years ago, we sent the first grain of sand 1 second into the past), so there are a lot of possibilities for errors. I am here to evaluate what "error" might mean, and how to deal with it, up to and including advising the project to shut down entirely. I have no command, only the eyes and ears of local planning staff. Mostly, I set up measuring gear around the world and talk to the few that get sent out via TT, and make long, often mathematical, theories and predictions about the consequences of what the Big Boys do with our TT machinery. #3: The TEI is fairly hush-hush, even for military projects. We donøt ask The Big Questions much, lest someone thinks us spies or saboteurs or something like that. However, the main theory is that the discovery of time travel was considered science fiction... until it actually happened. Then, panic started at what others might do with the technology, both now, in our past, and in the future. So the TEI seems to be a first-step military operation to protect our time and society against sabotage by TT. Because we are in the early stages of understanding TT, we are still trying to identify the dangers and what others might use it for against us. Some of that is my job. Our society is a lot more rigid than yours, too, although democratic elements are still at the core. Government is militaristic, leaving functional territories to govern themselves, while intervening elsewhere with force. Territories split into smaller in levels, each level being less authoritarian, meaning that functional territories are very free, while iron fists are common in less functional ones. #4: I'll spare you the math (oh god, the math...). In essence, time travel is based on the universe being held together along the T axis (time, as opposed to X, Y and Z dimensional axes) by a fifth fundamental force (the four you know being gravity, electromagentism, and strong and weak nuclear force). We have no formal name for it, but my field typically calls it chronicy. And just like you can overcome the other forces with enough energy (push against gravity or magnets, for example, or split atoms), you can overcome chronicy, too. You adjust some gravity tunnels to align yourself on a trajectory, pump in a buttload of energy (we got permission to enclose a small star to tap for power), and off you go. In practice, it's harder, mainly because that much energy rips most things apart, so anyone going out is encapsulated in a blob of absorbant material (compounds mostly consisting of Stabilium, atomic number 195, the first near-stable artificial element to be created), which is designed to detonate in the energy burst, protecting the travelelr inside it. For logical reasons, we do this in deep space, or we'd blow holes in anything nearby! We have succeeded in building some arrival stations, the one started in 1994 orbiting Neptune in a wide orbit. #5: I brought very little with me. In fact, I didn't even bring my body, instead being encased in a cerebral fluid and given a vatgrown body upon arrival back in January. Took some getting used to, it's a bit more muscular than my body back home! My gear is entirely produced at the arrival station (called the Boxxy, apparently it's a cultural figure of your time?), and includes mostly a lot of scientific measuring devices, all packed into a small dvices and designed to look like an ordinary cellphone. That lets me do readings in public without raising eyebrows. Mostly. I do maintain a connection to the Boxxy through it, too, but it's not very stable due to the solar activity of your time. They have a lot of other stuff, including some archeological data on your period, although I'd love it if they had something more precise. It's a millenium+ gap, so there is a lot of stuff missing. Don't expect celebrity gossip of the future to be within my reach, is what I'm saying. Oh, and my body has some hefty genetic upgrades, almost all of them meant to keep me alive, i.e. boosted immunities, certain antisanguinary measures, etc. Most of what I need, I build from scratch. Travel to and from the Boxxy is by stealth spacer, which they operate and dro me off or pick me up, but I only get that trip every few months. #6: I'm a loyalist, and a geek. I believe in the importance of protecting my home.... but I just love time travel, to be honest! It's some of the biggest challenges you can get, all wrapped into one neat package! My mission is to take a huge amount of readings over the course of several years, which will then be sent back to my time. I will also be going back, sometime around 2020, unless I get an extended stay. I really have no family of note back home, so I'm hoping to get an indefinite stay. Nobody told me outright, but I think the only reason to get most travellers back home is to keep them from getting too attached to their destination, up to and including changing time too much by relaying critical information or taking advantage of technological preknowledge. I heard one guy tried to bump a small island ("bumping" means splitting it out to its own unique timeline, without chance of access by others), but he got caught and... well, let's just say the people in charge have ways of dealing with that. Ick. #7: The proof is in the flashy gadgets, mostly. I am going public to look for new recruits for escalating the readings to large monitoring stations, and I need people who can handle the complexity of the work, both mentally and physically. You'll be using VERY advanced gear, based on sciences you do not even have yet, in areas of deadly climates and immense solitude, or even in downtown L.A. (special protective gear is issued). To handle this, you'll be issued a lot of stuff to keep you alive. I have a long list of names that are acceptable recruits, because their deaths will not affect the timeline all that much, and because they have been estimated to be capable (by other agents of the Boxxy). My usual way to convince someone that I'm from the future is a bit brutal, but it works: Cut off a finger of theirs, then stick their hand in my portable regrowth tank to grow them a new one in seconds. Anyone who remains skeptical but is of sufficient value might get a quick round trip to the Boxxy. Otherwise, the gear issued when they are stationed tends to help convince them. Of course, some only need to experience the excitement of the work or the lavish luxury of the time off (typically at the Boxxy, though we have a few secluded bases earthside) to convince them that, time travel or not, it's worth the job. Any questions are welcome. Potential recruits can message me, and I'll check their names on my list. [breaking the fourth wall now for comments] So that is a fictional time traveller. The proof in this case is futuristic gear, but it is already admitted that it was built from scratch, so there is nothing really impossible involved. A big hole I see in that is the argument that it might just be military, corporate or other secret stuff, advanced well beyond our public technologies. That goes for the Boxxy, too; anyone might claim that some government or billionaire group just built it in secret! How advanced would the technology have to be for you to believe it? Would the rapid regrowth of a finger do it? Would a trip to the Boxxy (which might also be faked, remember)? What kind of definite proof would you ask Bryon Pumling for, knowing about him what you know? What other information would you ask about his background in order to figure out how he could prove his story? Remember that this is a creative exercise, I am not offering anyone actual trips to the Boxxy :alien:
  6. Well, we do need thick skin, too. Like, kevlar armor thick. So getting bashed in a thread or having it derail comes with the territory, I guess. Buck up, we'll get this sucker rolling! And if not, I run a hugs-by-mail-order business on the side, and we just got a shipment of hugs back from the factory ?
  7. Oops, I should have stated that this is in no way meant as an insult or criticism against you. My bad, sorry. The problem is that a lot of people, on a lot of topics, want to believe things so badly that anyone looking at them with skepticism becomes "the enemy". That is a problem, because unless we try to rip our own ideas apart to the point of obsession before we stand firm on them, we open ourselves up to ridicule and drag everything else down with us. I, for example, honestly work on time travel (the study of the concept, not actual time travel itself!), but I would never say that to anyone other than A ) people here, or B ) someone I really really trust, because time travel is seen as akin to Bigfoot and ESP, i.e. it is laughed at. And that is because people want so badly to believe in something like Titor that they kill all criticism of the concept and make it look utterly stupid to anyone else. It's like your party being ruined because one person pees on the carpet. It only takes one to ruin it for everyone else.
  8. I've browsed through so many debates on proving/debunking time travel at this point, both here and elsewhere, that the point of them has become rather silly. I am a stern advocate for humanity needing a clearer idea of what TT entails before even starting to discuss possible ways to prove it to be real. When someone says "how would you prove it if you were a time traveller?" or "how can you prove that John Titor was real/fake?", I just sort it in the "if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, does it make a sound?" pile. The answers are meaningless, because the questions are meaningless. So I would like to set up a bit of a creative writing exercise. It's the old "how would you prove that you're a time traveller?" question, but with a bit more depth, so as to study (or at least think about) the complexities of time travel. The challenge: Pretend that you are, in fact, born into a society with the ability to time travel, and that you travel to our time. Give as detailed a description of the following things as you can: 1: Who are you, in your own society? Your background, your overall life experiences, your social circles, your daily doings, etc. Without even thinking about time travel, give a clear idea of who you are/were/will be in your society, just as a person. 2: What is your connection to your society's work with time travel? Are you a trained specialist, a dabbler, a private contractor, an innovator, a refugee, a clumsy person who pressed the wrong button, or something entirely else? 3: Why does your society time travel? This would include some rough ideas about who runs both society and the TT stuff, including matters of access, license, control, social norms, ideologies and more. TT might be as cold and calculated a thing as air traffic, or it could be a wild west of clever crazies running around with TT devices. 4: How does the time travel machine work? This includes whether there are multiple forms of time travel, of course! It is both a question of how the physics of TT work, with issues like paradoxes and split timelines, and a matter of the practical use of the technology, like do you get shot naked into the past, Terminator-style, or do you point and click on a screen and just slip in there, or do you perhaps even go only with your mind/spirit, as in Quantum Leap? And since this is a writing exercise, there is no "I don't know how it works". You, the person writing, must give an explanation. But see #5... 5: At the point of departure, what did you, the time traveller, bring? This includes knowledge, or access to it. Devices that let you call back to your own time ("time phones") are important, as are other time travel devices, but things like futuristic tools or reference books (physical, digital or other) are also important. If you brought your time machine with you, needless to say, it is of interest. 6:Why did you, the time traveller, decide to go here/now? This is both the personal interests and the "mission", if any, AND why the mission is important to you. The risks and sacrifices involved in time travel (will you return? Does it hurt?) figure prominently in this. 7: The big one: Considering all the above, how would you expect to convince someone in our time that you are, in fact, a time traveller? This includes WHY you would try to convince someone, and who that someone might or might not be. The point of all this is that with the laughably limited amount of knowledge we have about TT, most questions asked are far too broad to make any real sense. Most who try to hoax us by claiming to be a time traveller are mainly trying to avoid hard questions, but in a writing exercise, the hard questions are turned on the person asking. And because the focus is not on a single person trying to convince someone, we can look at the questions from a multitude of angles, poking at the topic far more than if just one bored soul is trying to make up something on the spot. Of course, I understand if people are overwhelmed by the need to suddenly take the place of the time travellers. It's always easier to be a dozen people hacking away at one person, than to actually take on the role of that person. Remember, others can still point out holes in your arguments ;) :ninja: :roflmao: And yes, I'll add my own, my fingers are just numbing up right now...
  9. Wanting to believe is, sadly, the core of the problem. Just like 98% of all arguments online, Titor builds on "truthiness", as Stephen Colbert so nicely put it, the idea that something is true because it feels true, or feels good to believe. There is no hard, factual proof for or against Titor, and there likely never will be. But if any of his predictions or other information is to be taken as proof, he flopped, hard. If it's all just to be seen as a rant, and none of it is predictive (for example, if his actions completely changed everything and the info on his TT machine were just for kicks and giggles), then proof never even enters the conversation. Either he was/is a fraud, or his actions were largely meaningless to the debate on time travel, because none of what he said can be used for anything. You should look around, this is practically 50% of the topics on these forums! The current result seems to be that there is no definite answer to it, because anything and everything can be countered,and those counterings can then be countercountered by the selfproclaimed traveller. In my personal opinion, everybody is jumping the gun on the topic. We know too little about the concept, even the *theoretical* concepts, of time travel to ask any meaningful questions. In fact, I think it would take a time traveller to teach us enough about the deeper concepts of time travel to allow us to even start on making a test. Not to mention a test that would actually mean anything. i mean, what if you proved someone was a time traveller, someone right there in the chair next to you? What then? What would absolute, undeniable proof even mean??
  10. Are we sure the notion of time travel was even a big thing in 1500? Remember, a lot o fthings we talk about today would make little sense or point for someone just a century ago, let alone five. Talking about infrastructure and mass transit would require a lot of explanation just to make people understand what it was, and I think time travel would be beyond what people commonly thought of, not to mention would need/understand proof of. Proving you had advanced knowledge might simply label you a weird foreigner, a great philosopher, or, yes, a witch. Heck, even today, it seems a lot of people do not understand the ide of what TT is. When I mention it, people start asking me about reincarnation or going to other planets. Apparently, the basic idea of TT is not as rock solid as one would think. So I might have to start teaching the people of the time the idea about, well, time, as a seperate thing that could be travelled. Sure, they would know time existed, but we know that fire exists, and if I said "hi, I'm a fire traveller", I doubt it would make a lick of sense to anyone off hand. EDIT: But to actually answer your question, assuming they would fully understand both time travel and the notion of proving it, I would start constructing a bunch of machinery with simple tools. I know the basics of mechanical computing, combustion, and distillation (yay stronger booze!) to kick some dirt up. What they would make of it, I haven't got the faintest...
  11. Just to quickly update: #3 turned out to be scammers, to no surprise. Apparently some east europeans thought we might have a lot of money. #4 maaay be a slightly sadistic thespian. Someone thought the description fit a non-local actress who has a thing for pranks and access to weird theatrical tools. Still no news on #2, but we did a remeasure on the facilities, and it turns out 20.000 sq ft. was just someone's guess. It's closer to 45.000 sq ft. of indoor space, with about ten times that in outdoor space. PS: If anyone new to this feels the thread is somewhat chaotic, it's because the admin merged two threads into one. I still disagree on it, but it seems finite.
  12. I completely forgot to follow up on this, but basically, searching for "how memories are formed" on Youtube will bury you in videos, and the ones I clicked were informative, although a bit dry (science might be cool, but it doesn't always *look* cool). I do still recommend Hank's stuff on the Crash Course channel for newbies in the world of neurobabble :geek:
  13. Just a thought: WHY would a time traveller prove he/she is a time traveller? I get that if they don't care at all, there is no need to come to a place like this. But when I travel (normal travel!), I just say "oh, me, I'm from Denmark", and nobody asks me for proof. If someone came to me and said "hi, I'm from the year 2294, could you tell me how this [whatever] works?", I don't know if I would even start asking for proof. If something dire was asked of me ("could you please hold this loudly ticking piece of unrecognizable machinery for me while I run the other way?"), I'd simply refuse to have anything to do with that person. The argument "don't worry, I am from the future" would be no better than "don't worry, I am from Canada" or "don't worry, I am an engineer". Proof of what the person is would not matter. So if someone says "I am from the future", I may not believe the person, but the first thing I would jump to would probably not be undeniable proof. I'd ask a lot of othe stuff first, just like I would of someone saying they were from a very foreign land or an unusual religious belief. So what level of proof really makes sense to ask from a supposed time traveller before asking a lot of other stuff? EDIT: Just dawned on me, does anyone in movies ever truly grill someone about being a time traveller? I don't think the issue ever really comes up (of thorough proof, that is) in either Back to the Future, The Terminator franchise, Dr Who, or any other such stories I can think of. (I may be phrasing this poorly, it just fell into my way too open mind)
  14. I'll see what I can find when I get home tomorrow, but Gpa's article is a good start. So is Hank Green's neurology videos on Youtube. Note that I am no expert, just a geek ;) PaulaJedi, IIRC shortterm memory has a general location, while longterm specializes. PS why wont multiquote ever work for me?
  15. Science and the soul are actually not that opposite ideas, it's a topic studied all throughout history by hardened scientists (and an assortment of nutjobs, but what isn't). One study tells of a scientist weighing people at the moment of death, and noting a clear change in weight, declaring that the soul's weight (it has since been explained as the weight of certain liquids evaporating without being replenished as the body shuts down). Even today, it continues; apparently, theories are being put forth that consciousness evolved from our ancestors surviving better if able to resist animalistic urges, creating functions in the brain to examine and evaluate itself, i.e. become self-aware (we are all Skynet). One idea that fascinates me (which has absolutely no root in science) is that the soul might not be "us", per se, but rather an imprint of us, for storage, study, or even duplication and experimentation. Meaning that the flesh is the flesh, and the soul is a *seperate* entity from the conscious self altogether. And yes, my brain does hurt. Oh, and memories are not energy. They are fixed (but possibly fragile) constructs of matter in the brain's fluids, lining up to form bigger wholes when tapped into by our brains' operations. They are *created* with energy, but they are very much physical constructs themselves.
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