Essentially, yes. It's a DWS, which is a Sacred Theology doctorate with an emphasis in worship studies. I just tell people PhD to save a lengthy explanation.
so you are an expert in the bible, correct?
in other words
and the ideas behind it, so to speak
expert, no. enthusiast, yes. I have the credentials to go to battle with heavyweights. But my interest is in "church culture" and why churches do the crazy things they do. I am a "liturgical anthropologist" if that helps. lol
a little lol
sounds like you are a smart cookie
have you ever come across someone with the same thoughts on religion as the ones i debated you with the other day? just wondering
also, have you ever read the gnostic gospels? if so, whats your opinion? and what do you think about the books that the church didnt put in the bible?
I've come across so many different ideas, they become like a big haze. Many are mad at God because they do not understand Him. And even more are mad at the church. And yes, I have surveyed the gnostic gospels. They're interesting. there were all kinds of ideas floating around the Ancient Near East during the time of Christ. I believe the Council of Nicaea was correct not to include them in the canon. As far as their accuracy, it remains a mystery. I think they may have tidbits of truth here and there, but I also think they are largely the sensationalist tabloid readings of the time.
I would add, they do not detract from the overall Gospel message. The dead sea scrolls confirm that. I am of the persuasion of, "If Jesus had a wife and kids and a pet dog, who cares?!"
pretty cool, i agree. i never get to talk to anyone thats even read any of it, so thats a nice change. thanks for your thoughts. at least someone makes some sense.
Anytime, Carey. No one has all the answers. And as soon as they think they do, they are mistaken.
February 22nd, 10:47pm
i couldnt have said it better.
ive got a request, because i like the way that thar brain of yours thinks. could you do one of them there essays on perception? i would love to hear your views on perception, and i think it may end up helping some people critical thinking abilities. thanks for your time
Interesting. Can you elaborate?
I just wanted your perspective on perspectives lol. I think you have an excellent ability to get people to understand your viewpoint, and I would find it interesting as well.
Stay tuned, especially for Day 13 when I talk about Modernism vs. Postmodernism. I think by the time these 40 days are over, I will have covered the concepts of perspective and intellectual pride.
Sounds like you have thought this out well. Are they already written? How much time did you spend planning this? Its very interesting to me. I just hope it helps people think a little more
I have about 75% written
So what's your story? How did you get to your level of comprehension? I hope you don't mind me asking. I guess it probably sounds odd, but I practice a certain form of bushido
My story is too long and complicated to condense into a short message. Next time I swing through Montgomery I'll have to buy you a beer.
Sounds like a deal.
i dont drink anymore, but i will definitely listen.
Well that's even better
indeed, im a horrible drunk. i turn into a full sized 2 year old.
i do smoke pot, but i doubt you delve into devious activities such as that lol
ill shut up and quit posting on your forty days of humility posts if you want me to. im not trying to hijack them by any means
Nah. You're okay. Engagement in thought was the whole premise.
ok, thanks. i know i can wear on people, but its for a good cause, eventually. ive got my own plan with my free will. i want to change the world for the better. i am idealogical fool, but if i get my wishes, before i am dead the world will be an equality and positivity eutopia. or its just a silly dream and ill never figure things out. you are a person that seems to think like me though. i noticed that you plan things ahead, like playing chess several moves in advance. you understand how to create a plan that works on a larger picture, as opposed to the current picture, if that makes any sense. so i think you have the ability to help me change the world. it all depends on if we have the same end goal and 'perspective.'im really hung up on that word...
many pastors have told me that my view is flat out wrong, but i never had much respect for those pastors. i believe a pastor is someone who is supposed to guide the people, through god, and no other influencing factor. so i think that we could possibly think out a solution.
the first step is understanding how hard it is to change the world, then we have to look at the challenges that stop anything from changing the world, and learn how to nullify those attributes. you get what im saying so far?
your journey is what you decided it to be. you decided to have forty days of humility. so i would ask you for a fairly tough thing to do: go back and read every conversation we have ever had. on the forty days posts and on private messages.
now it goes back to where it all started, and what made like you in the first place: while doing this, i want you to look at it as if you were that same guy when you had that first thought and question you had about everything. i want you to look at it as if you were an impartial and impressionable person. after you have read all of that from a different perspective than yours,(aka one that doesent know what to believe and is in the position you were when you started) let it all sit in, and then come read the rest below.
isnt it amazing how impressionable we are and how traditions and boundaries can hold us back so much? i have carefully crafted a bigger picture of a point. when i started talking to you, my mind concieved of this point, and every point before this talk. i have predicted your actions and reactions to the best of my knowledge and have taken great care just to attempt to give you a very small "aha!" moment in your life, and it very well could fail. or it could be an example of emulating divine wisdom. that is for your own free will to decide.
do i have unfathomable wisdom? of course not. im pretty smart, but its got a beggining and an end. i can be just is dumb as anyone. the main thing is that you have a good heart and love one another. all the lonely lancelot ever wanted was an equal in combat.
this is what i say, and i believe this is exactly word for word what god would say as well. it is my belief that the bible is a message of this. it is also, unfortunately heavily biased in perspective of people of those times, and tradition. you were killed for uttering anything deemed offensive. only those with rank could challenge the status quo, and those with rank usually had to be corrupt to get in the position to begin with. "power corrupts." these are all self truths that do not go against the teachings of the bible. when you look at the bigger picture, you will see the proof. in the beginning, god had negative emotions and feelings, even outbursts of destruction. he also had epiphanies in the bible. my ultimate proof of this is Genesis 32:22-32.
...then if you read Genesis 33, it directly links to this entire story. im a full circle kinda guy. we wont be full circle for a long time, but i hope were getting there.
really, im just a scientist testing a hypothesis using scientific method. either that, or im batshit crazy.
Ha! Perhaps the latter. Welcome to the club.
Yeah, I probably have too much free time to be left to my thoughts. Gotta be the latter
2 hours ago
ive been thinking my poor old brain out about what you said, and the only thing ive been able to come with on why people believe god has a different thought process than us is: because god didnt eat the fruit from the forbidden tree? but that doesent make sense to me either. for him to forewarn humans meant he had knowledge of the tree. i dunno, im close to giving up on it...
If you've ever taken an advanced mathematics course, or a physics course on relativity, you might begin to see how our present reality is an obscured manifestation of laws and principles. But even these laws begin to break down once you get past simple length, width, depth...
i have, hence my thought process
lol god defies the laws of thermodynamics!
No matter how close we get to figuring him out, he is three steps ahead Exactly
says who though?
Well, says the Word, if you take it at face value. Second, says the cosmos. And third says the people of faith--martyrs and witnesses of the unexplainable
i can look up and understand that we are living on a rock, with a magic bubble around it protecting us while we are hauling ass through space, and the odds of that randomly happening are so low that there has to be a creator. i can get that, theres proof enough of me theres a god, but...
what i cant wrap my mind around, is why people think his thought is divine, when the "word" doesent say what you are saying it does, at least not by my interpretation. from the very begining, it says what im saying. in the beggining, there was a word. that word came from a thought. a thought is a human emotion. it says we are created in gods image. boom, theres my proof. wheres your proof that i can go and look at and read and see? you can tell there were no alterior motives to my side, but what motives would the church have to preach that god is divine and to worship him and to give your money to the church? get what im saying, or am i a loon? cause it sucks not to feel understood at all
But without faith, you cannot believe "even if you see someone rise from the dead". Luke 16:31.
Or better, Isaiah 55:8
i interpret the faith its describing as a definition than you are though. to me, faith is understanding
Faith is defined in Hebrews Chapter 11
that says god is righteous, as should be. thats a different subject
lol and 3 says through faith we understand....
i dont get it
Aha. So faith helps in the understanding?
no, faith IS understanding
And you get your authority to define faith from...?
faith is not worship, or sacrifice, or any of that. its been alot through the years. where i get the authority to define faith is the same place they all have
or maybe your proof is my proof? hebrews 11
the bible reads alot different when away from the bias of the church and other traditions, i just have a different perspective
all the talk about the father and the son in the bible. everyone knows the relationship of a father and son. a father is proud when his son grows up to be stronger than he was. and the bible has many parables, but none about this relationship. but jesus plainly said he came to break relationships between father and son
Faith always comes before complete understanding. It's why God told Abraham to go to a land that I will show you. I could recommend to you Lee Strobel's book, a case for Faith.
And Jesus said I am the father are one, John chapter 17
I and the father
so you are pretty much saying that you are right on this matter, and i am wrong, because you understand that faith comes before understanding?
to say otherwise would deny 2000 years of church history, and 2000 years worth of Greek and Hebrew theological research.
yeah, thats pretty much what im doing, but it doesent prove im wrong in any way. i would like proof that im wrong. it would make me feel a hell of alot better if i knew i was just crazy
Again, Lee Strobel's A Case for Faith might be a starting point. But again, what really matters is, "who do you say that I (Jesus) am"
which it could be argued that your whole take on religion is blasphemous since your first thought on it was thinking about what god would think. and thats blasphemy in the churches eyes. you cant practice divinity n all that hubub.
i dont think that, of course
ill hunt down the book you are talking about, and i imagine ill have a question or two after lol
it must make some sense if it makes more sense than i do. thanks for your time.
one last thought: jesus was big about breaking traditions. in his time, people said the same about him as they do about me now. whats the difference?
just pray to god, talk to him about what im saying. that should be all the proof you need really, and a true testament to faith.
id direct you to read this as well, particularly the criticism. http://infidels.org/library/modern/paul_doland/strobel.html
The Case Against Faith: A Critical Look at Lee Strobel's The Case for Faith
Yeah, Jesus really did have a problem with the way "religion was done". He had little tolerance for the religious hypocrisy of the Pharisees. When it comes to the scripture though, he always interpreted it in relation to himself. Yet, he did establish the church, on peters human shoulders. For better or worse
let me ask you this. what do you think christ would say to me in response to my thoughts?
if what you believe is true, why put a silly verse in the bible about us being created in gods image. it means absolutely nothing if we cant understand divinity. it almost reminds me of racism: "seperate, but equal." why would the first thing in existence(gods thought) not matter? these questions are still left unanswered.
another question: you can look at all this as a test of your faith, and if you do, you will probably fail. because by definition, humans are sinners and stumble from their faith. the faith you stumble sets you up for failure. when questions like these arise, theres no answers, unless you look to the corrupt or the traditionalists, then you will find an answer. the "faith is understanding" approach actually promotes faith as the strongest thing there is, for without understanding, we do not even understand what life is. by our faith/understanding, we are comfortable in our lives and in our deaths. so why would a man as smart as i know you are, settle for something you know is not perfect?
and this is actual greek philosophy. older than 2000 years old to boot!
Perhaps his most important contribution to Western thought is his dialectic method of inquiry, known as the Socratic method or method of "elenchus", which he largely applied to the examination of key moral concepts such as the Good and Justice. It was first described by Plato in the Socratic Dialogues. To solve a problem, it would be broken down into a series of questions, the answers to which gradually distill the answer a person would seek. The influence of this approach is most strongly felt today in the use of the scientific method, in which hypothesis is the first stage. The development and practice of this method is one of Socrates' most enduring contributions, and is a key factor in earning his mantle as the father of political philosophy, ethics or moral philosophy, and as a figurehead of all the central themes in Western philosophy.
To illustrate the use of the Socratic method; a series of questions are posed to help a person or group to determine their underlying beliefs and the extent of their knowledge. The Socratic method is a negative method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions. It was designed to force one to examine one's own beliefs and the validity of such beliefs.
"The Myth of Er is a legend that concludes Plato's Republic (10.614–10.621). The story includes an account of the cosmos and the afterlife that greatly influenced religious, philosophical, and scientific thought for many centuries.
The story begins as a man named Er (/ɜr/; Greek: Ἤρ, gen.: Ἠρός (not to be confused with Eros); son of Ἀρμένιος, Armenios of Pamphylia) dies in battle. When the bodies of those who died in the battle are collected, ten days after his death, Er remains undecomposed. Two days later he revives on his funeral-pyre and tells others of his journey in the afterlife, including an account of reincarnation and the celestial spheres of the astral plane. The tale introduces the idea that moral people are rewarded and immoral people punished after death.
Although called the Myth of Er, the word "myth" means "word, speech, account", rather than the modern meaning. The word is used at the end when Socrates explains that because Er did not drink the waters of Lethe, the account (mythos in Greek) was preserved for us."
Jesus would say, "you believe in God, believe also in Me." Perhaps another book you would enjoy is "Jesus among other Gods" by Ravi Zacharias. That would be my higher recommendation.
i think jesus would say, "i came for the blind and weary, not you. go and spread the teachings." guess ima nut though lol