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From Chuck Colson:

 

To paraphrase the opening of a popular ESPN show, these four things everyone knows are true: Before Columbus's first voyage, people thought the world was flat. When Copernicus wrote that the Earth revolved around the Sun, his conclusions came out of nowhere. The 'scientific revolution' of the seventeenth century invented science as we know it. And the false beliefs and impediments to science are Christianity's fault.

 

There's just one problem: All four statements are false.

 

As Rodney Stark writes in his new book, For the Glory of God, 'every educated person' of Columbus's time, especially Christian clergy, 'knew the earth was round.' More than 800 years before Columbus's voyage, Bede, the church historian, taught this, as did Hildegard of Bingen and Thomas Aquinas. The title of the most popular medieval text on astronomy was Sphere, not exactly what you would call a book that said the earth was flat.

 

As for Copernicus's sudden flash of insight, Stark quotes the eminent historian L. Bernard Cohen who called that idea 'an invention of later historians.' Copernicus 'was taught the essential fundamentals leading to his model by his Scholastic professors'—that is, Christian scholars.

 

That model was 'developed gradually by a succession of . . . Scholastic scientists over the previous two centuries.' Building upon their work on orbital mechanics, Copernicus added the 'implicit next step.'

 

Thus, the idea that science was invented in the seventeenth century, 'when a weakened Christianity could no longer prevent it,' as it is said, is false. Long before the famed physicist Isaac Newton, clergy like John of Sacrobosco, the author of Sphere, were doing what can be only called science. The Scholastics—Christians—not the Enlightenment, invented modern science.

 

Three hundred years before Newton, a Scholastic cleric named Jean Buridan anticipated Newton's First Law of Motion, that a body in motion will stay in motion unless otherwise impeded. It was Buridan, not an Enlightenment luminary, who first proposed that Earth turns on its axis.

 

In Stark's words, 'Christian theology was necessary for the rise of science.' Science only happened in areas whose worldview was shaped by Christianity, that is, Europe. Many civilizations had alchemy; only Europe developed chemistry. Likewise, astrology was practiced everywhere, but only in Europe did it become astronomy.

 

That's because Christianity depicted God as a 'rational, responsive, dependable, and omnipotent being' who created a universe with a 'rational, lawful, stable' structure. These beliefs uniquely led to 'faith in the possibility of science.'

 

So why the Columbus myth? Because, as Stark writes, 'the claim of an inevitable and bitter warfare between religion and science has, for more than three centuries, been the primary polemical device used in the atheist attack of faith.' Opponents of Christianity have used bogus accounts like the ones I've mentioned not only to discredit Christianity, but also to position themselves as 'liberators' of the human mind and spirit.

 

It's up to us to set the record straight, and Stark's book is a great place to start. I think it's time to tell our neighbors that what everyone knows about Christianity and science is just plain wrong.

 

 

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TT0 #2,

 

ok, sense (sic) when did science become a religious thing anyway's?

Well...we do remember Galileo's 1633 trial for heresy before the Office of the Inquisition for challenging Copernican geocentricity, don't we?

 

I seem to recall a sentence of ex-communication, house arrest for life and his books and the transcript of his testimony before the Grand Inquisitor were banned by the Holy Office.

 

About four-hundred years later he received an apology for the error.

 

 

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"So why the Columbus myth? Because, as Stark writes, 'the claim of an inevitable and bitter warfare between religion and science has, for more than three centuries, been the primary polemical device used in the atheist attack of faith.' Opponents of Christianity have used bogus accounts like the ones I've mentioned not only to discredit Christianity, but also to position themselves as 'liberators' of the human mind and spirit."

 

Last I checked Christianity isn't the only religion. I also don't consider science as a "atheist attack of faith." It seems to be religion attacking science most of the time.

 

I certainly beleive in a higher law but I don't beleive I need to contribute 20% to be on the favorable side of that law.

 

 

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I agree. It is true that science ignores God, and tries to eliminate any spiritual contribution in experiments by striving for consistancy, but it does not do this on purpose, and it does not accept or deny any spiritual powers. I believe that scientific experiments show the conservation of energy, and whatever requires the least amount of energy will be the most probable outcome of any experiment. This makes science a powerful tool even for those with tremendous spiritual power that may be able to make anything they see fit occur without science (making the assumption that everyone has this latent power). Science produces predictable results in a predictable period of time, whereas spiritual powers are unpredictable and require substantially more energy. A spiritually powerful person should therefore desire to be as knowledgeable of science as possible to conserve their power. The only reason why they would have a problem with men of science is because the logical mind tends to ignore spiritual power, and therefore, the God behind it. This is not to say that scientists are athiests, but that the belief in God is completely subconscious when doing scientific experiments.

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

I find it much more likely that time travel will one day become possible, than that your God exists. I do have respect for people who believe in the Bible, in Jezus, or in any form of religion, but science has already shown us that the Bible is false, in that way that the Bible is NOT to be taken litterly. Earth was NOT created in seven days by God, God did NOT send Jezus to earth to save our souls. None of what the Bible says has actually ever really happened. Does this mean that there can be no God? No, science cannot prove or disprove the existance of a God, at least not with the current scientific knowledge. It is possible that there is something out there that you could call "God", but the problem is that there are so many definitions of a God, so how can you go and prove or disprove the existance of a God? So, science cannot prove or disprove the existance of "a" God, at least not today, but it can, and has, proven that the religions that mankind knows, like catholicism, buddhism, the islam etc. are created by humans themselves. So you could say I am something between an agnost and an atheist: agnost in that way that I don't exclude the existance of "a" God, a "higher" power, but if something like that does exist, than it is something completely different than what mankind has made of it. And I am an atheist when it comes to the Gods that are created by religions like catholicism, islam, buddhism,... Gods like that don't exist.

 

And the John Titor story: off course that story is a bunch of crap, but that is no prove that time travel is impossible. Time travel could be impossible, but it could also become reality one day, we just don't know. And for the rest, I suggest you open YOUR eyes. For much too long time, people have been mistreated by church in the name of God. That has to end. And we're getting there, but it seems there are still people that have stayed stuck in the middle ages. WAKE UP EVERYBODY!!

 

 

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I hate when religion goes into science. Personnaly. I'm a believer but I do believe in TT and parallel universes/multipule universes and stuff like that. Does that make me less a believer? No. One question to the believers. Do you dissmiss the fact that TT is not possible because of your religion or your beliefs? I want to know. You don't have to be bound by rules so much. Your not being asked to steal or murder or do something bad but only open your eyes. Religion covers a cloak above your eyes. But it doesn't have to.

 

Green_slash, The Golden King of Avalon, King_Takeover.

 

 

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What is up with you people and bringing god into everything???

 

I've never heard of an "act of god" out side of the bible. Please provide examples that cannot have a scientific explaination. And no crying statues, they've already decided this was not a AOG

 

He didn't help the jews during WWII, he didn't stop 911, he didn't stop the romans from killing a all those christains (or catholics I can't keep track anymore), to my recolection he has never done anything at all, unless you belive he created the universe and all that stuff.

 

Don't misunderstand me or anything, I think jesus was cool and he helped alot of people who wanted to be help, but then again so did Satan. Religon today is very one sided, god=good, Satan=Bad.

 

I'ts all lies, if they're the supreme beings they cannot be god or evil if there is no one to answer to for their actions, or judge the way they do things.

 

Time travel has nothing to do with religon, if anything it would help religon. Don't you think there would be more faith if you could go back and talk to jesus?

 

 

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You CANNOT time travel. It's impossible!

As long as it's possible for a NON-EXISTENT, so called higher power to create earth, heaven and the stars within seven days ANYTHING is possible.

 

I don't believe in god OR timetravel until I've seen some scientific proof of either. To be honest, timetravel sounds more probable to me.

 

That picture looks like it was taken back when digital cameras first came out around 2000 with low mega-pixels.

So... lets assume I have a digital camera from 2036 with a 2.5 Gazillion Megapixel CCD... How would you proceed with downloading the timemachine.xzyff file from the camera to a computer in 2004 without getting an error like "Drive is full. Unable to copy timemachine.xzyff (1,7 TB)". Oh... probably by using the built in 802.99 Z wireless interface? Sure, it is very well possible that such a camera is backwards compatible with older technology, but it's probably easier to use a contemporary digital camera, don't you think? ;)

 

Okay, that's about it... I guess I'll go wait until god strikes upon me with great vengeance for the things I just said. Oh.. no... wait... I have better things to do :)

 

Roel

 

 

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He could have stopped other things you don't know about like The plane that crashed in the field on 911 maybe it was going somewhere big and that would have cost the lives of the people on the plane and the ground plus more damage. Just because you can't see doesn't mean it's not there.

But he just left the other planes to crash into buildings, kill thousands of people and cause massive amounts of damage. What a great guy - actually that might explain things. If god is a HE, apparently us men can't multitask properly...so he could only stop one plane...

 

 

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I'm not using God's name in vain, but as a christian I deem fit to answer your explanations. Apparently, God has really no business in science and human arguements. In the bible, it states that all who believe and have faith in him would go to heaven. It means a freedom of choice, it's up to you to choose at all. What he does we cannot explain, we may never find out. Such things are incomprehensible by human standards. Since we do not grasp a full understand of the universe or god, we cannot say and proclaim as we deem fit. Yes, I make mistakes. We all believe what we have faith in, no one is right or wrong until the end. So by saying that, I'm trying to tell you that no one can be sure that we are 100% right or jus purely wrong.

 

As for cyberjunk, how can we define 7 days in the bible. 7 days in the bible could mean billions of years, or 7 days could simplify the processes that was made so we could understand his word. Can you prove that Jesus didn't come? It seems like historical records did not fool it. Remember, christianity was widespread and the bible was written in several different languages accounting to the same events written by different people and compiled. As I've said I may be wrong, but I believe in what I have faith in.

 

There is an explanation for everything. Only when we know everything then can we say we are 100% correct and do not err.

 

JT said, it was up to us to believe. He didn't coerce us or tried to prove anything. I myself believe time travel can be possible, but I'm still a christian.

 

people should look up into the word religion and the meaning of science. God obviously is a higher being than us, we do not understand his origin or his form, possibly never comprehensible by us. He has handed us a gift which is the bible, he gave us a choice. it's all up to you really, you can choose to believe it.or not.period.

 

 

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Well, Nicknack, we shouldn't be having a discussion about God on a time travel forum, but since we are, I have a few more remarks.

 

OK, I can't prove that Jezus didn't come to earth, I just don't believe that he existed, or when he did, that he was the son of God. Another reason why I don't believe in the God of the christians, is,... why don't we see him? Why doesn't he come to Earth? He doesn't seem to care about the life that he created. And there is a lot of pain and unhappiness in this world. It doesn't make sence to me that if God created Earth, that he wouldn't have the power to put and end to everything that is going wrong in the world. That just doesn't make any sence to me. And frankly, I don't want to have anything to do with a God that is so sadistic, a God who is letting people suffer without doing anything about it. Even if the Christian God would exist, than I don't understand what christians like about a God that doesn't seem to care about mankind and lets people having to deal with pain, illness, hunger, war, etc. etc. Personally I dislike a God like that very much. But it is possible that there is a higher power that you could call God. I don't want to exclude the possibility. But I just think that if a higher power, a "God" exists, that it is something completely different than what mankind and all the religions that we know, have made of it. And in that case I wouldn't think of God as a person that rewards the good ones after our death and punishes the bad ones, but rather as something.

 

 

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cyberjunk:

 

He doesn't seem to care about the life that he created.

That's exactly what I think. If there even is a remote possibility that a higher power does exist, then why are so many innocent people suffering in this world. It just doesn't make sense.

 

Furthermore, I often wonder why religious people find it easy to believe that a god suddenly appeared out of nowhere and at the same time refuse to accept other (more plausible) theories about how the universe began and evolved.

 

nicknack:

 

In the bible, it states...

The bible is a book full of contradictions. I can't imagine people base their entire believe on a book that's so badly written that the author was afraid to put his name on the cover. It's the worst fairytale ever. :-)

 

Just for the record: although I may express myself in a somewhat arrogant manner, I do respect everyone's believes. Please don't feel offended by any of my post.

 

Roel

 

 

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BringerofTruth,

 

Your ignorance amazes me. When we die we do not go to either heaven or hell, if this was the case then there would be no need for Jesus's second comeing. He will come to judge the world, thus the dead will rise i.e. revalations 20. The place where we go instead is Sheol aka Abrahams Bosom. This is the place where Lazarus was and also the place where Jesus said the thief would go to. Jesus says "Today you will join me in Paradise" he doesn't say heaven. Cross reference the word paradise and the use of it in that sentence and you will see it's not referring to heaven. Jesus said Himself "I will go to make a place for you" thus referring to heaven, further meaning that before Jesus there was no heaven. Now why did God send Jesus, because man had fallen out of grace with God and that was His last ditch effort to save His creation. When man messed up the first time what did God do? He destroyed the earth with water. So when man messed up again he didn't destroy the earth, hence the promise of the rainbow, instead He gave us His son so that if we believed in Him He'd save us and then destroy the earth with fire. Therefore, before Jesus there was no need for Heaven becuase man had not yet fallen out of God's grace.

 

Please forgive me becuase I know this has nothing to do with Time Travel, though I do believe it could be possible, but I simply had to comment.

 

 

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Maybe be their was a meaning for what happened there. Maybe it's much to great for me or you to understand. It's like trying to teach a 2 year old physic's. You just can't and then their are times where they do understand (Not refering to previous statement) 2 hour old baby talks. 3 year old can speak like an adult. I.E. My cousin. I think the fact is that we don't understand. It's like how could someone like Hitler and be a Facist. How could you like him. Their was this one guy and he was a facist and still is. Man this guy he could tell you all the things about how Hitler did good things and you just wonder but how does that replace all the bad things and this guy he would keep on talking and when you said something bad about Hitler he'd say something good about him. it stayed that way and he would never fully open his eyes.

 

Green_slash

 

 

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A few things,

 

1. Hitler wasn't evil, he may have seemed evil to the jews, but to his own people he was not evil. He was just misguided, and went anout it the wrong way, he should have just deported them all not kill them.

 

2. To ants, are we not superior beings? if I learn to speak ant, and write a book about my self then do a few parlor tricks to impress them, maybe pretend to kill one of them but bring it back to life, am I not a god to them?

 

3. To all you religos people, I respect that you put so much faith in a faceless and actless god, but please don't bring it to the time travel forums, either talk about it at your book burning clubs or just pester MOP to make a religon forum, maybe under fan fiction :devil:

 

4. jesus was a cool guy, he helped some people with their lives. Myself, I choose to live by anther set of rules. I got nothing against jesus, he did his thing with out forcing it upon other people.

 

5. the bible, I have never read it and most likely never will. I have heard it mentioned a few times that Unicorns are talked about in it, so if you belive in god do you also belive in unicorns?

 

I'm finished for now

 

 

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keven, you should read the bible, i recomend any and every person to read it. Regardless of if you believe it or not. I have read it, i dont know if i believe, i continue to pick it up and read parts of it now ang again. Its good to know why people think what they think. Helps to understand them. I dont just do this with the bible, i try to understand everyone i even meet in one way or another.

 

edit: there isnt enough understanding in the world today

 

 

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1. Hitler wasn't evil, he may have seemed evil to the jews, but to his own people he was not evil. He was just misguided, and went anout it the wrong way, he should have just deported them all not kill them.

What???!!! Either you have a very bad taste in humor and you forgot the smiley, or you just had your brain surgically removed.

 

 

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Seriously, it's not that he doesn't care. Many christians were once drug addicts, murderers, unbelievers trying to bring the religion down as a hoax. You still don't understand what I'm trying to explain here. God didn't bring us here to suffer. It was sin. God gave us the freedom to think to do whatever you wanted to. But he had law to govern us, sadly humans aren't perfect as we are marred by sin. Thus we suffer because of our own mistakes. He is going to save us, he gives us salvation that fallen angels to not have. angels are beings who can see outside time but not share emotions and feelings with have. They are not god and once they fall, they are gone forever. Morever, they are your demons that people have recorded throughout history. Don't you all see? Pain and suffering wouldn't be prevalent if we were all perfect? He is here to test our faith and belief in him, but I do not ask you to. Maybe if one day you could pick up a bible and read it and find it a turning point, then would you agree with me then.

 

Since this is a time travel forum, I wouldn't post anything religious again since it isn't fair to atheists and agnostics and people with other religion and I apologise.

 

Roel, the bible is not a fairytale there is proof in 8 different languages and different history recordings in many countries which were all translated and compiled together. There are authors, but the author itself is God as it was inspired. Maybe you haven't been reading enough material to understand that. God cares for the people if not why are so many people saved everyday? Have you not read of testimonials of converts, we do not need rituals or a forbidden diet to prove our faith. We do not require as such to go to heaven just our faith. God cares and he's there. I hope no one will be offended by this post. But this is what I'm trying to explain and denounce your term of 'sadistic god'

 

I know as a christian myself I stand to prove whatever I believe, but that is what I believe.

 

So if there was no god, are we trying to imply here we could be gods ourself? To reach a state of nirvana? That is what many people in the world think so far, isn't that more ridiculous in the idea itself, we humans only used a small capacity of our brains. There are many things we can never comprehend or apprehend.

 

People read the bible as a surface material to prove that it is wrong. So you take random messages you see and denounce what you read? Is this called debunking a bible hoax? Why not read a whole chapter and examine every verse and tell me what you think.

 

P.S I'm only 16, I myself do not go to church but I believe in god and I read about it a lot. Whatever I have said and explained here, I hope to be forgiven if any of you were offended.

 

 

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keven, you should read the bible, i recomend any and every person to read it. Regardless of if you beliecve it or not. I have read it, i dont bealieve, i continue to pick it up and read parts of it now ang again. Its good to know why people think what they think. Helps to understand them. I dont just do this with the bible, i try to understand everyone i even meet in one way or another.

 

edit: there isnt enough understanding in the world today

Really good post. I think people should read the bible if they're going to try to argue against it. If you're going to argue against something then you should at least try to understand the subject and you can't get the understanding of christian belief's without reading the bible. There's more in there than "god exists's, accept it". It's the same for religious people trying to argue against science, a lot of the time they seem to read the "religious" interpretation of scientific findings then argue against it with their rules. Or they don't read anything and argue against it because it isn't in their bible.

 

I have actually tried reading the bible, it's not easy. It's extremely vague. The storytelling lacks any real detail. The claims just seem absurd. The bit that really freaks me out is the fact that Adam and Eve had two sons. Their sons also had children....think about it....That's not to say the bible is entirely fictionalised. A lot of could be true but the interpretation is incorrect.

 

I think the biggest problem is that everybody seems to accept the default belief's of their chosen religion. They don't question them. They follow them blindly without even questioning the obvious flaws. If god is perfect why would he be jealous of other gods (Genesis). If man created man perfectly, how could man be tempted? Perfect people don't act with imperfection - that's a contradiction.

 

Incidentally, I don't believe in god.

 

Anyway, this is a time travel forum and I think we should leave debates about religion at the door. But I agree with Jayson - more people should try to be a lot more understanding and open to different ways of thinking.

 

 

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In reply to you Perago, your right in religion versus science. People tend to argue and get carried away not knowing or being familiar with the other subject.

 

The bible may be absurb to many, but have you thought that the bible was meant to interpret something else? Like how God created the world in 7 days. The 7 days could simply imply billions of years. It was just 7 stages of development on how he created this world. Ok for the adam and eve question. Because they only have a limited population, incest was allowed by God. Deformed babies were as a result. Remember, those people could live up to 600 years before they died and as the world was still new, bacteria wasn't sophiscated enough like today's virii for example AIDS. Thus, it was only all reason to prove this to many doubtful people.

 

Not everyone is like that, I question god sometimes. I even fell out of faith once. It only made me realise how silly I was you know. Let's say for example a religion to keep you out of bad influences like cults. God isn't jealous of other gods. He simply doesn't want us praying to lifeless idols which man has been doing throughout history. There was simply no other god but him, but he just wanted the people to know he is the one and true god.

 

God created men as perfect, faultless. But when adamn and eve ate the fruit. Their eyes and senses opened up the world of right and wrong, it was a turning point. As they have defied God's will they have sinned, thus marred by sin forever following along was pain,suffering,sadness and death.

 

In conjunction to this as a time travel forum, I guess you're right. We should stop discussing out of the topic. Everybody has their own ideas, I'll be glad to hear them all.

 

 

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HAHA I'm still the youngest person on the forums!!!

 

If god is so caring then why did "he" plauge my grandfather with alsimerz (sp?) for the last 3-4 years of his life? my grandfather was a regular church goer, was good friends with the church leader person (don't know what you people call them), he ever did free work for the church in his chosen trade which was carpentery.

 

And if you think he saves people, then why do over 4000 children die every day from starvation? and that doesn't even count all of the war that is fought in his name, why doesn't he stop some of that if he's all powerful? Instead of having his followers killed for no reason? Or why did he not stop WWII and save those 5.7 million jews? Or stop the romans from killing all of those christans?

 

there are those of you that will argue that he did stop things from happening like the thrid plane in the 911 attacks, but I don't belive that, the piolet crashed it him self they have records of itfrom the black boxes. And that other one was shot down by the F-18s.

 

So what has god done for you?

 

 

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What has God done for me?

 

Let me first start by answering some of your skepticisms.

 

Why do bad things happed to good people? God allows things to happen to all of humanity. He allows his followers to undergo the same trials as nonbelievers. Why? So that when the world sees a believer going through a trial they will see that the believer handles it differently than a non believer. Terminal illnesses are probably the most common example of this. True believers in Christ will have a peace and purpose that passes any human's understanding.

 

Why do 4000 children die everyday from starvation? I think this says more about us as humans then it does about God. Sin in the world causes gross injustices. God allows us to live in the wicked/tainted/abhorrent conditions that we do in order to give as many people as possible a chance to see the truth and believe in him. "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promises, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentence." But don't worry...there is a time when God will allow the sin of the world to continue no more.

 

God plays an extremely active role in the world today. I see it on a weekly basis. Miracles. Absolute miracles. The world calls them converts, but I call them miracles. Why? Because nothing else can explain when an absolutely evil person's heart is changed and they do a complete 180 in their life. That is just not humanly possible. If it was possible for a human to change their own heart and become a better person, then why doesn't everyone just DO that. No, it takes the spirit of God to accomplish such a task. And you don't have to look far to see it being done.

 

As for me? Without getting too personal on a time-travel forum, lets just say that my life should not be as good as it is. However, because of a changed heart that believes in Christ, my life has been blessed beyond anything I could have imagined. Friends, Jesus Christ, the name that still causes people to get insanely defensive/irritated/offended after 2000 years, is alive and well. I DARE anyone on this forum to confess with their mouth and believe in their heart that Jesus is Lord.

 

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. -Romans 10:10

 

 

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