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All Gods Aside


1stBorn
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Ray's in triplicate please thread was an interesting debate and an outstanding thread, and great points were made by both sides but lets put the idea of an intellectual entity aside for a second and agree to disagree on that subject. Regardless, a system higher than the one we live in would be considered a fourth dimension, right? So our existence is a subsystem of a greater system that functions within the fourth dimension as we do the third? Or does our existence in the third dimension define it as a colaborative subsystem, as a whole? I have no friggin idea :)

 

perhaps the fourth dimension is a system of organized chaos, where by all things defined in our dimensions subsystems have a higher counter part, or play a part in defining the higher systems which define the fourth dimension, similar to DNA and the millions of other subsystems, as we know them to exist, contribute to define the third dimension.

 

I do not doubt that a fourth dimension exists but I have wondered how it could be detected. Sometimes it sucks to be human. :mad:

 

1stBorn

 

 

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All Gods Aside...I agree with you 1st Born. The reason I brought up the Kaballah wasn't to influence anyone with regards to a belief in God or not. The reason I mentioned it was that contained within its text some interesting theories on the creation of the Universe.

 

Many philosophers were masters of extracting possible truths to many questions. I believe that if one gains an understanding of how the Universe operates (whether a God started the process or not ), then answers to many riddles may be solved, including time travel.

 

Should we ignore any thoughts from the masters of the past merely because they may have used a religious foundation for thier inquiries? It would be easy to hide information from some people by inserting God in the text here and there, they would scoff and toss it aside, possibly missing some data that could hold the key.

 

 

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Consider this. A life in a cell comes about and you cannot bring it back to life once it is dead. A cell is a part of life, pulsating like us breathing. Where does this life come from? Until now men are never sure, until somewhat a celestial event happens. But while we are at this acclerating modern age. Scientists are duped to using witchcraft and holistic/traditional healing under the name of science, embracing a new age movement. They believe that all men can be gods. Well, I beg to differ really, or rather opinions differ in that sense, it sounds like completely lunacy to me and although I wasn't brought up in a very much religious environment, the power of christianity has stuck onto me and I'm very fascinated by bible prophecies which I'm currently studying.

 

Theologians and scientists alike, all seek an answer to this answer to 'life' and the other mysteries of the universe like what we seek here, 'time travel'. I would say religious foundations cannot be thrown aside easily, after all it was a different age of society. Their interpretation might be different and after all most discoveries were inspired from religious texts itself. It's so fascinating that our ancestors were bestowed with wonderous knowledge we today with present technology cannot duplicate.

 

All I want to add here is that the New World Order is approaching, I wish more people will take heed into seeing this blasphemous life, religiously attached or not. (: Live life happy, with purpose.

 

 

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Can you clarify this, please? Which scientists are using what witchcraft and believe that all men can be gods? Can you give examples?

Well, not duped but let's say they are using it now. I believe you are all familiar with the terms 'psychic powers', 'hypnosis, 'psychotheraphy' and so on? Isn't modern science using this techniques to so-called expand the minds of man, when it is actually the age-old ancient techniques practised by medicine men, witchdoctors, witches and so on? Isn't the trance state they achieve the same as the trances people practise? What about yoga and meditation? Have you noticed the sudden rise in newspaper ads for therapies of all sort, yoga, pilate and meditation? Have you seen countless Americans going to India to seek their 'true' self? I'm not saying all scientists, but especially athesist scientists are starting to believe that the Universe is one mind because they are not convinced there's a god out there. Since all this therapies and 'psychic powers' originate in the roots of hinduism/buddhism merged with aquarian philosophies and creative imaginations of men like Benjamin Creme. Why, you might be surprised to know that Hitler himself was actively involved in such occultic activities and practise psychic trances himself!

 

Since, most men don't accept a god, they are led to believe that under the name of science Man has infinite mind potential and is going to EVOLVE to a higher state of consciousness. Have you read of WHO accepting traditional or alternative medicine? Yes they have, seen the pattern of alternative lifestyles and music rising? It is everywhere, on tv serials, cartoons, newspapers, magazines all sorts of media. I was even duped myself at the age of 13, thank God somehow I snapped out of it. I've been intrigued by the studying of this New Age movement and I have much to discuss about it. I have dug out my dad's old book collection and found some about it written in as long as 1990 and yet the details it provides unfolds with no mistakes.

 

http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/

 

http://www.echoesofenoch.com/

 

This are some reference sites and these books can be found in local christian bookstores.

 

I myself do not attend church but am a christian.

 

 

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I believe you are all familiar with the terms 'psychic powers', 'hypnosis, 'psychotheraphy' and so on? Isn't modern science using this techniques to so-called expand the minds of man, when it is actually the age-old ancient techniques practised by medicine men, witchdoctors, witches and so on?

Not as far as I know, no.

 

Isn't the trance state they achieve the same as the trances people practise?

What trance state, and who is the "they" who have achieved it? Are you saying that scientists are claiming to have discovered trance states? The same trance states that hypnotists and psychologists have been using for centuries? Can you provide any cites for this claim?

 

Have you noticed the sudden rise in newspaper ads for therapies of all sort, yoga, pilate and meditation?

Well, there has been a resurgence in people selling and practicing "New Age" things of late, yes, but that's to do with uncertanty in the world, and lack of trust in our leaders, rather than scientists having anything to do with it.

 

BTW, if, by "pilate" you mean "pilates", then it's just a fitness regime, not entirely dissimilar to step aerobics or calesthenics. It's become fashionable recently due to celebrities practicing it, but from the 20s onwards, it's been primarily a discipline of modern dance. Also used to help injured atheletes to recover.

 

Have you seen countless Americans going to India to seek their 'true' self?

Once more, this would seem to be a mirroring of the 60s, and due to the same societal conditions being prevalent today as then, rather than scientists having anything to do with it.

 

I'm not saying all scientists, but especially athesist scientists are starting to believe that the Universe is one mind because they are not convinced there's a god out there.

Again, I've seen no evidence for this. Can you provide a cite?

 

Why, you might be surprised to know that Hitler himself was actively involved in such occultic activities and practise psychic trances himself!

I knew that. I'm not sure of the relevence, though.

 

Since, most men don't accept a god[...]

97.5% of the entire world's population believe in an intelligent higher being (or beings) in one form or another. I'd say that "most men" accept a god, by a fairly high margin.

 

[...]they are led to believe that under the name of science Man has infinite mind potential and is going to EVOLVE to a higher state of consciousness.

I have never heard any credible scientist say anything even remotely like that. Can you give a cite for this claim?

 

Have you read of WHO accepting traditional or alternative medicine?

It depends on your definition of "traditional" and "alternative" medicine. Willow bark, for example, is a painkiller. Using it as such would usually be considered "alternative", but the fact is that it's more effective and safer than asprin. In fact, truth be told, asprin is an attempt to recreate the active ingredients of Willow bark artificially.

 

Yes they have, seen the pattern of alternative lifestyles and music rising?

I'm not sure what you mean by "alternative lifestyles and music".

 

I have dug out my dad's old book collection and found some about it written in as long as 1990 and yet the details it provides unfolds with no mistakes.

Yup, that's when the second big boom of this kind of thing really began, in the early 90s. It kind of went out of fashion for a bit (althugh it's never actually gone anywhere), but is on the increase again. It's still not as big as it was in the early 90s, or the 60s, though.

 

I can't load that first site you linked up, and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at on that second one. I certainly see nothing about scientists to hand, there.

 

 

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Not as far as I know, no.

Okay, what I'm trying to explain here that modern psychology techniques originate from witchcraft, seances and well, since Men can't really fathom the brain anyway and yet we are messing with our subconsciousness.

 

What trance state, and who is the "they" who have achieved it? Are you saying that scientists are claiming to have discovered trance states? The same trance states that hypnotists and psychologists have been using for centuries? Can you provide any cites for this claim?

They are the psychologists and people who practise hypnosis. When I mean scientists I do not mean all fields of science, but some. Perhaps you know the term Metaphysics that is accepted in some Universities? Yes, those psychologists and hyponotists you mentioned, are certainly not man of science in the past. Well, I would say would you find writings on psychic abilities and hypnosis on magazines such as Reader's Digest credible?

 

Well, there has been a resurgence in people selling and practicing "New Age" things of late, yes, but that's to do with uncertanty in the world, and lack of trust in our leaders, rather than scientists having anything to do with it.

 

BTW, if, by "pilate" you mean "pilates", then it's just a fitness regime, not entirely dissimilar to step aerobics or calesthenics. It's become fashionable recently due to celebrities practicing it, but from the 20s onwards, it's been primarily a discipline of modern dance. Also used to help injured atheletes to recover. ]

Pilates, my mistake is not JUST a fitness regime. First, it involves similar meditation techniques to achieve a calm state of mind and well it has been altered in many ways to make it modern and 'self-help'

 

Once more, this would seem to be a mirroring of the 60s, and due to the same societal conditions being prevalent today as then, rather than scientists having anything to do with it.

I don't blame scientists, yes the leaders and politics have to do with it. But if you look under the mask, it's all a conspiracy. If you look at the UN, they were supposed to solve world problems but now they are loaded with problems themselves. Their primary goal is to unite the world under one-government, religion and currency. What religion you might ask? Well, I can explain those later. Rather than saying it is part of society change that people involve themselves in seemingly 'occultic' activities, such as tarot cards, divination and wicca of all sorts. A survey was done in the last century and found that more people have become more superstitious than people in the 1920's especially since we are at the peak of science and technology. Drugs and meditation were quietly introduced into many parts of the world to achieve trance-states.

 

Again, I've seen no evidence for this. Can you provide a cite?

Sorry, I can't provide sources as all this is based on books I have read. I can't explain this in a convincing manner as my writing isn't so good. What I'm trying to say that more 'atheists' scientists are getting involved with old theology and philosophies of believing that the universe is of one cosmic mind and 'MEN' can connect with this giant cosmic mind through 'psychic powers' such as 'astral projection' and 'hypnosis'. Right now there are scientists trying to stimulate the powers of the brain to achieve this trance state.

 

Stuff you can see

 

I knew that. I'm not sure of the relevence, though.

Hitler joined a cult himself called the Thule Society and was eventually renamed into the Nazi we know today. He had powerful hatred for Christianity and Jews believing that they were stopping him into producing the world's supermen. His reason for that was because he belived by his rule and order of his 'higher masters' he will exterminate all inperfect men and choose those called the 'aryans' that are supposedly the last surviving race of the "Atlantians'. Well there is more to be said but I shall stop.

 

97.5% of the entire world's population believe in an intelligent higher being (or beings) in one form or another. I'd say that "most men" accept a god, by a fairly high margin.

Yes the world believes in a god but in totally different concepts. Christians believes in ONE god and ONE saviour. Whereas Buddhism/Hinduism practises polytheism and the New Age philosophies tells people that they can be GOD and can only save themselves. Buddha was one such man that achieved Godhood through meditation.

 

I have never heard any credible scientist say anything even remotely like that. Can you give a cite for this claim?

No offence, but I've seen this in writings. You have to look around the internet, they have those sources you want. Sorry if I can't provide any. There are scientists who say that MAN has infinite potential and some are involved in organisations like the Planetary Intiative, UN and so on.

 

It depends on your definition of "traditional" and "alternative" medicine. Willow bark, for example, is a painkiller. Using it as such would usually be considered "alternative", but the fact is that it's more effective and safer than asprin. In fact, truth be told, asprin is an attempt to recreate the active ingredients of Willow bark artificially.

Traditional meaning herbalogy but alternative is using the effect of 'tradtionality' such as medicine men and witch doctors. Ah! But yes the WHO has accepted alternative medicine and treatments. Maybe the more famous ones are Massage, Foot Reflexlogy, Chi' and Acupunture.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "alternative lifestyles and music".

I'm saying the increasing rates of Homosexuality and people wanting to changing their sex. Those are alternative lifestyles. There are more for example, people who tattoo themselves like a leopard and live in the wild, you see this people on TV and indeed it is horrible and self-degrading. I speak of music that is popular today, yes the rubbish that is surfacing everywhere. Perhaps you haven't heard of the music categories such as Alternative Rock?

 

Yup, that's when the second big boom of this kind of thing really began, in the early 90s. It kind of went out of fashion for a bit (althugh it's never actually gone anywhere), but is on the increase again. It's still not as big as it was in the early 90s, or the 60s, though.

 

I can't load that first site you linked up, and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at on that second one. I certainly see nothing about scientists to hand, there.

Well, the new age can be traced as long as to the 1920s the trend was always there and now it's booming again. I don't ask you to believe me and the questions you ask are indeed worth asking. I'm not paranoid but I'm trying to save as many as I can before we are supposed to accept the Mark of the Beast. You might want to know that this is already in progress. There is a super Computer in Europe that can store every detail of everyone in the earth and it's affectionately called "The Beast".

 

The site was kinda lagging yesterday, it works fine today however. Do try again. The second link has evidence though. It's all halfway in some of the topics like Hollow Earth. Maybe reading those could inspire you. I don't know, it's all up to you.

 

 

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Okay, what I'm trying to explain here that modern psychology techniques originate from witchcraft, seances and well, since Men can't really fathom the brain anyway and yet we are messing with our subconsciousness.

I'm not sure I'd put it exactly like that, but, yes, I'll agree that psychology uses a lot of the same techniques as things like witchcraft and seances. But that, to me, only goes to re-enforce the illegitimacy of seances and the like. If the evidence of the supernatural is merely somoene being put in a hypnotic or semi-hypnotic state (a state in which people are very succeptible to suggestion and very prone to confabulation), then that's not very good for the case for spiritualism.

 

In fact, a couple of weeks ago, "psychological illusionist" Derren Brown (yup, him again. I'm a big fan) did a live seance on TV. We all participated and spookily got in contact with the person that we were supposed to. He managed to have a girl be a medium and reveal details that she couldn't possibly have known about the girl. He then brought the actress who played the girl in some video clips in, and it was revealed that the show wasn't even live. He also explained how he did some of the tricks. He basically revealed how seances were nothing but psychological trickery.

 

There's a review of it here, which is an interesting read. I'll warn you, though, if you're easily offended, that the reviewr has a very foul mouth.

 

When I mean scientists I do not mean all fields of science, but some. Perhaps you know the term Metaphysics that is accepted in some Universities?

Metaphysics and spiritualism are two very different things, though. It's a simple extention of already established theories.

 

Yes, those psychologists and hyponotists you mentioned, are certainly not man of science in the past.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean that their techniques have any less of a basis in corporeal existence. I mean, just because people thought that hypnosis was a connection with the spiritual world before it was understood doesn't mean that it actually was a connection with anything. It's exactly the same with the pseudo-science hypnotists who "regress" people to "past lives" or who "reconstruct" UFO abductions with people. What is now known about hypnotism and things like it makes these ideas being genuine very unlikely.

 

I once saw a demonstration of how hypnotism makes people incredibly suggestible and also prone to confabulation. A young woman who had never had anything unusual happen to her and who was a skeptic was put under. In 5 minutes flat, without actually seeming to prompt her much, the hypnotist had her describing the experience of being abducted. Afterwards, he showed her paper on which he had written exactly what she was going to say. He hadn't seemed to suggest anything of the kind. You can make very subtle suggestions, and make people think what you want them to.

 

Again, this is also the kind of thing that Derren Brown is very good at. Did you watch that link to the example of the voodoo doll I put in the other thread? That's a great example of how even mild hypnotic suggestion can be very powerful.

 

Well, I would say would you find writings on psychic abilities and hypnosis on magazines such as Reader's Digest credible?

I consider Reader's Digest to be a highly unreliable and trashy and populist source. Perfect for Dentist's waiting rooms, but nothing else. So, no.

 

Pilates, my mistake is not JUST a fitness regime. First, it involves similar meditation techniques to achieve a calm state of mind and well it has been altered in many ways to make it modern and 'self-help'

Some people do do meditation and the like as part of their regime, but Pilates itself is nothing but movement and excersise. Here.

 

But if you look under the mask, it's all a conspiracy. If you look at the UN, they were supposed to solve world problems but now they are loaded with problems themselves.

That a large political body has problems implementing anything and huge internal disputes woud be evidence against a conspiracy, not for one. In what way does the current state of the UN indicate a conspiracy?

 

Their primary goal is to unite the world under one-government, religion and currency.

Again, I'm going to have to ask for a cite. That's certainly not what the UN Charter says.

 

A survey was done in the last century and found that more people have become more superstitious than people in the 1920's especially since we are at the peak of science and technology.

Without seeing the survey itself, I can't really comment too much. Unless I can judge the validity of the data, I can't judge the validity of the survey itself. However, I would tend to agree with the findings, based on my limited anecdotal evidence (which is not a firm basis for anything).

 

But if you go back further, the Victorian era would be the one that had the greatest interest and belief in the supernatural. However, even if I were to accept that today is the most credulous era in history, I still don't see what conclusion I'm supposed to draw from that. As I've stated, we're at possibly the most unsure time in history at the moment, we have unprecedented access to information, and we don't trust those in power at all. It's no surprise that people are looking for surety and something higher than themselves that they feel that they can trust.

 

. Drugs and meditation were quietly introduced into many parts of the world to achieve trance-states.

As you've already said, though, they've been prevalent throughout certain parts of the world for more time than can be accurately counted. Meditation techniques are an integral part of many Eastern religions, and certain Western religious practices can be said to share many similarities. What is prayer if not a form of meditation? The Eucharist shares much in common with hypnotic techniques, even down to the physical contact with a specific spot on the forehead. As for drugs, Shamanisnm, for one, is based around the use of drugs. Many aboriginal religions, too (particularly American Indian). And you cannot downplay the importance of both techniques in voodoo.

 

That these things should spread as long-distance travel and communication becomes more and more commonplace is harld a surprise, nor indication of any kind of conspiracy.

 

What I'm trying to say that more 'atheists' scientists are getting involved with old theology and philosophies of believing that the universe is of one cosmic mind and 'MEN' can connect with this giant cosmic mind through 'psychic powers' such as 'astral projection' and 'hypnosis'.

I hope you can understand that, with no evidence to support this, I simply cannot just take your word for it.

 

Stuff you can see

That site still isn't working for me. Perhaps it's my browser, but it follows the link, and then just displays a blank page.

 

Hitler joined a cult himself called the Thule Society and was eventually renamed into the Nazi we know today. He had powerful hatred for Christianity and Jews believing that they were stopping him into producing the world's supermen. His reason for that was because he belived by his rule and order of his 'higher masters' he will exterminate all inperfect men and choose those called the 'aryans' that are supposedly the last surviving race of the "Atlantians'.

Again, I know all this, but I still fail to see the relevence to what you are saying.

 

Yes the world believes in a god but in totally different concepts.

Absolutely. But the fact remains that the vast, vast majority of people do believe in a God or Gods in one form or another.

 

No offence, but I've seen this in writings. You have to look around the internet, they have those sources you want. Sorry if I can't provide any.

But what writings? Without actually knowing what or who I'm supposed to be looking for, it's not too easy to find a cite by myself. If you believe that credible scientists have expressed such opinions, then surely you have something to back this up? You at least know what you're looking for. Can you not find a cite?

 

But yes the WHO has accepted alternative medicine and treatments. Maybe the more famous ones are Massage, Foot Reflexlogy, Chi' and Acupunture.

Well, I can agree with massage, Reflexology and Acupuncture, because it has been shown that they can work. That scientists are investigating why they work is no surprise. I can't find anything about Chi with relation to the WHO, but I would be very surprised if they gave credibility to the concept of Chi as it is. I can, however, imagine them promoting T'ai Chi as part of a healthy lifestyle. That's a slightly different thing.

 

I'm saying the increasing rates of Homosexuality and people wanting to changing their sex.

I think you'd be hard pushed to prove that. What I think has increased is tolerance of and acceptance of homosexuality and transsexuals. Let us not forget that not too long ago homosexuality was illegal and could have you locked up. Given those circumstances do you believe it would be wise to "come out" to the world? In fact, when it comes down to it, there are countrys in this day and age where homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. I wouldn't say that we have more actual homosexuals here in England, but I bet we've got a hell of a lot more people who are openly homosexual than Sudan has.

 

Besides, it's not always been this way. In ancient Greece, for example, it was commonplace for young boys to be initiated into the world of sex by older men. Plato, to pluck a name out of the air, would ahve had young apprentices, and it wouldn't just have been philosophy that he taught them. Similarly, in Roman times homosexuality was the norm. So much so, in fact, that it wasn't viewed so much as a seperate thing from heterosexuality, it was just all part of people's natural sexual drive. Druids, too. There have been many times in history that have been far more accepting of homosexuality than our time is. In fact, so much so, that "accepting" isn't the word for it, any more than we would call our society "accepting" of people eating biscuits.

 

There are more for example, people who tattoo themselves like a leopard and live in the wild, you see this people on TV and indeed it is horrible and self-degrading.

That would be the one person, Tom Leppard. I think it's neither horrible nor self-degrading. He seems perfectly happy.

 

I speak of music that is popular today, yes the rubbish that is surfacing everywhere. Perhaps you haven't heard of the music categories such as Alternative Rock?

I wonder how "alternative" something in the mainstream can be? I certainly don't see the connection between boyband dross like Linkin Park or Avril Lavigne and man having "infinite mind potential and is going to EVOLVE to a higher state of consciousness".

 

There is a super Computer in Europe that can store every detail of everyone in the earth and it's affectionately called "The Beast".

Are you talking about this (AMD Opteron 246)? Do you have a cite for it being able to store "every detail" of everyone on Earth? Exactly what do you mean by "every deatail"? How would all this information be gathered? There's an infinite amount of details that could be stored about any one individual.

 

 

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I'm not sure I'd put it exactly like that, but, yes, I'll agree that psychology uses a lot of the same techniques as things like witchcraft and seances. But that, to me, only goes to re-enforce the illegitimacy of seances and the like. If the evidence of the supernatural is merely somoene being put in a hypnotic or semi-hypnotic state (a state in which people are very succeptible to suggestion and very prone to confabulation), then that's not very good for the case for spiritualism.

 

In fact, a couple of weeks ago, "psychological illusionist" Derren Brown (yup, him again. I'm a big fan) did a live seance on TV. We all participated and spookily got in contact with the person that we were supposed to. He managed to have a girl be a medium and reveal details that she couldn't possibly have known about the girl. He then brought the actress who played the girl in some video clips in, and it was revealed that the show wasn't even live. He also explained how he did some of the tricks. He basically revealed how seances were nothing but psychological trickery.

 

There's a review of it here, which is an interesting read. I'll warn you, though, if you're easily offended, that the reviewr has a very foul mouth.

It's not really a good idea to engage in spritualism or the supernatural, especially when you don't know what your messing. When a state of mind is calm and goes into a trance-like state, by Christian studies, it is said a demon under a mask of good such as angels, a guide, a master, or a wise old man is usually visualised and under the false pretense guides you through problems, but are actually the works of demonic forces. I have heard of that show, but I haven't the chance to watch it. Yes, it is very fake in some ways. But the centuries of practice must have some touch of supernaturality in it, thus, the demonic forces invloved in such activities. In my country, buddhism here is pretty widespread and chinese mediums are everywhere and can be easily found. Their methods is somewhat similar as they go into a trance and suddenly a force overtakes them. This can be explained by that a unknown force has tapped into their free mind 'port' as they go into a trance like state which leaves the mind free for any forces capable to overtake it. This forces to me are known as demons-in-disguises.

 

Metaphysics and spiritualism are two very different things, though. It's a simple extention of already established theories.

In subject they are different things. But in the New Age theories, they work hand in hand. Example being Metaphysics can be linked to geomancy or feng shui, the method of feng shui is seeking supernatural forces to guide them and give them answers for the balance of yin and yang. All this invoves some sort of occultic involvement, minor or not. Spritualism is the advanced practice of traditional occult like witchcraft. Feng Shui can also be labelled as what we know as Eastern Mysticism, it is much the same really. Just a totally different concept and study.

 

Maybe, but that doesn't mean that their techniques have any less of a basis in corporeal existence. I mean, just because people thought that hypnosis was a connection with the spiritual world before it was understood doesn't mean that it actually was a connection with anything. It's exactly the same with the pseudo-science hypnotists who "regress" people to "past lives" or who "reconstruct" UFO abductions with people. What is now known about hypnotism and things like it makes these ideas being genuine very unlikely.

 

I once saw a demonstration of how hypnotism makes people incredibly suggestible and also prone to confabulation. A young woman who had never had anything unusual happen to her and who was a skeptic was put under. In 5 minutes flat, without actually seeming to prompt her much, the hypnotist had her describing the experience of being abducted. Afterwards, he showed her paper on which he had written exactly what she was going to say. He hadn't seemed to suggest anything of the kind. You can make very subtle suggestions, and make people think what you want them to.

 

Again, this is also the kind of thing that Derren Brown is very good at. Did you watch that link to the example of the voodoo doll I put in the other thread? That's a great example of how even mild hypnotic suggestion can be very powerful.

Uh uh uh, again I must warn you that hypnotism has still many questions under it. First thing we don't understand how it works, secondly we don't understand why it happens. We just know we can intitiate it and we often get shocking answers. Hypnotism is a very strange subject we can't quite fathom. But what I suggest is that, Hypnosis does not have a very good basis in science. So far people who practise it, do not have any recollection or accounts of being hypnotised and what they said. They also seem to have strange vivid memories they never had in their lives. For example, this bloke was put under hypnosis and he recollected memories of his birth and the conversation the doctors had. Strange enough, we understand that babies under 3 years of age do not have the ability to store memories let alone a birth.

 

I consider Reader's Digest to be a highly unreliable and trashy and populist source. Perfect for Dentist's waiting rooms, but nothing else. So, no.

I have to support you on that, it is a highly uncredible source and I find most stories to be really disturbing in a sense. To think my school 'forces' us to purchase monthly copies on an annual basis. I find the contents readable but to to expand on it, I would say it is stupid.

 

Some people do do meditation and the like as part of their regime, but Pilates itself is nothing but movement and excersise. Here.

I would dare say millions do it daily. Ah! Pilates is movement and exercise, but there is sort of a combination of techniques practised in yoga and Pilates itself. Some people achieve Pilates by using meditation themselves. I have no claims but from a book, that some people who has practised extensive yoga and meditation has been diagnosed with personality problems. From what I have read, there are hotlines to help people who suffer split personalities and disturbing voices in the head after an extensive practice of yoga. Some people choose to ignore it, some call it a 'guide'. But those who are new to it find it disturbing and do not understand this voice. Perhaps I dare claim that this voices are demons but their victims are unprepared to accept them yet.

 

That a large political body has problems implementing anything and huge internal disputes woud be evidence against a conspiracy, not for one. In what way does the current state of the UN indicate a conspiracy?

 

Again, I'm going to have to ask for a cite. That's certainly not what the UN Charter says.

 

Ah! Wait, before we start discussing extensively about the UN being a conspiracy. It is only a minor setup compared to the other organisations. Have you heard of the ancient Priory of Sion and Illuminati? The Priory of Sion is still here after many centuries and has its roots in europe and is know to be involved in a europe international bank. Perhaps you would be surprised to know that international banking had its roots from as long as the year 1600. Yes, there was such a thing but at that time with no such technology, it failed many times. Usually these international banks are set up by rich families such as the one we know to day as Hasburg, the predecessors to the Austrian Monarchy (If they ever decide to implement Monarchy again.). The Illuminati are an elusive group hiding behind the curtains of huge conspiracies such as the currency conspiracies. I believe that you know of the cashless society plan? They are part of it, under the plans of many people in all walks of life. It is hard to believe, but is that another reason why there are so many government secrets now? The UN goals may seem simple and a solution to world problems, but eventually this one-world government known as the anti-christ by prophets will be dogmatic and his rule will be much worse than the millions of massacared jews. We will be slaves by then as when he implements his mark on the forehead or right hand, we cannot buy or sell if we do not have this mark. Fabulous situation from theft and problems you say? Ah, but our every detail and location and be traced just by this mark and we would become slaves to him. The UN charter does not say such a thing, but their goal is simple. They want to unite the world in order to solve all world problems. The rest is left to the centuries of planning by the Men who plan to rule the world.

 

Without seeing the survey itself, I can't really comment too much. Unless I can judge the validity of the data, I can't judge the validity of the survey itself. However, I would tend to agree with the findings, based on my limited anecdotal evidence (which is not a firm basis for anything).

 

But if you go back further, the Victorian era would be the one that had the greatest interest and belief in the supernatural. However, even if I were to accept that today is the most credulous era in history, I still don't see what conclusion I'm supposed to draw from that. As I've stated, we're at possibly the most unsure time in history at the moment, we have unprecedented access to information, and we don't trust those in power at all. It's no surprise that people are looking for surety and something higher than themselves that they feel that they can trust.

Yes you can say that, I do not have basis in my claims. But what I say is quite obvious. We can see people saying Friday 13 is bad luck and the practice of Halloween which is actually a pagan tradition. We can go back to the Victorian era and say as such, but this modern world has reached a pinnacle in technology and yet, we are still skeptical beings and we fear things that we don't comprehend. Especially when it comes to the end of the world, people fear it but never do anything about it. That thought amuses me how we ignore something right on our faces.

 

As you've already said, though, they've been prevalent throughout certain parts of the world for more time than can be accurately counted. Meditation techniques are an integral part of many Eastern religions, and certain Western religious practices can be said to share many similarities. What is prayer if not a form of meditation? The Eucharist shares much in common with hypnotic techniques, even down to the physical contact with a specific spot on the forehead. As for drugs, Shamanisnm, for one, is based around the use of drugs. Many aboriginal religions, too (particularly American Indian). And you cannot downplay the importance of both techniques in voodoo.

 

That these things should spread as long-distance travel and communication becomes more and more commonplace is harld a surprise, nor indication of any kind of conspiracy.

It may not seem like a conspiracy for all. But this is done to prepare the future generations to embrace the New Age unknowingly. Prayer has many concepts and forms, some involve meditation to induce prayer and some talk to a higher being for help. Either way, it helps but in different resuls. Yup, you are right about the use of drugs. But since we are a modern society do we really need such things to interfere with progress? Obviously, there is something going on with that. We invent, we progressed, we have power, but something overlaps all this, we have more problems instead. What seems good seems to be overwhelmed by cons instead.

 

I hope you can understand that, with no evidence to support this, I simply cannot just take your word for it.

I understand, I myself cite my claims on these books. I may be too trusting but I believe it has truth in what they say. This claim is more on the personal side and the face of scientists are more surfaced than going into detail. I deeply apoglogise for my lack of evidence.

 

Again, I know all this, but I still fail to see the relevence to what you are saying.

Haha. I'm sorry, I just want to show you the pattern of such seemingly insane man who immerse themselves in the occult and anti-christ writings to be dangerous, let alone the millions who do it too. It' just a vague linkage.

 

Absolutely. But the fact remains that the vast, vast majority of people do believe in a God or Gods in one form or another.

Oh yes, again I must digress in different concepts. For example Christianity, One god and all men are sinners. New age, All men can be god and ARE god and we are not sinners. That's bascially what I'm trying to say.

 

But what writings? Without actually knowing what or who I'm supposed to be looking for, it's not too easy to find a cite by myself. If you believe that credible scientists have expressed such opinions, then surely you have something to back this up? You at least know what you're looking for. Can you not find a cite?

I'm a rather lazy person, and I write my evidence based on what I read both online and books. Sadly, I ofter do not remember to record my links down. I'm sorry. I guess we have to put this question on hold. Just trying to make some points here. However, there are many books on this subject.

 

Well, I can agree with massage, Reflexology and Acupuncture, because it has been shown that they can work. That scientists are investigating why they work is no surprise. I can't find anything about Chi with relation to the WHO, but I would be very surprised if they gave credibility to the concept of Chi as it is. I can, however, imagine them promoting T'ai Chi as part of a healthy lifestyle. That's a slightly different thing.

It may surprise you to know that I'm only 16 and I live in a chinese society. I have tried massages and foot massages myself and I found it strangely comfortable. Yeah it works, but the comfort could be part of a placebo effect? You have said about humans being able to be hypnostised or be mildly suggested rather easily. I believe the effects are the name, nevertheless many people do not take this as evidence. I would say it is rather healthy somewhat, but still part of the New Age concept. Not too far back, I believed in the power of autosuggestion, hypnosis, Chi' and massages. But now, I see it in a totally different point of view. Please try to understand.

 

I think you'd be hard pushed to prove that. What I think has increased is tolerance of and acceptance of homosexuality and transsexuals. Let us not forget that not too long ago homosexuality was illegal and could have you locked up. Given those circumstances do you believe it would be wise to "come out" to the world? In fact, when it comes down to it, there are countrys in this day and age where homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. I wouldn't say that we have more actual homosexuals here in England, but I bet we've got a hell of a lot more people who are openly homosexual than Sudan has.

 

Besides, it's not always been this way. In ancient Greece, for example, it was commonplace for young boys to be initiated into the world of sex by older men. Plato, to pluck a name out of the air, would ahve had young apprentices, and it wouldn't just have been philosophy that he taught them. Similarly, in Roman times homosexuality was the norm. So much so, in fact, that it wasn't viewed so much as a seperate thing from heterosexuality, it was just all part of people's natural sexual drive. Druids, too. There have been many times in history that have been far more accepting of homosexuality than our time is. In fact, so much so, that "accepting" isn't the word for it, any more than we would call our society "accepting" of people eating biscuits.

It is the norm in most societies. However, what changes this and acceptance now is how Man is opened up to such ideas and this is sort of like an international acceptance to gays, this previously wasn't allowed. Now we see many youths who were intitially straight and are now influenced to engage in this homosexual lifestyle and a struggle for gender identity. This again is another step to embrace the New Age. From my personal experience, in girl's schools in my country. I have known many girls who were straight but later became lesbians and it shocked me really. They were friends of mine and they were rather normal and it was appalling to accept their new preference. Thus accepting homosexuality would only mean that it is right for anyone to do it, under peer influence and media.

 

That would be the one person, Tom Leppard. I think it's neither horrible nor self-degrading. He seems perfectly happy.

Ah! Combining this with homosexuality, we can't tell what a person thinks just by watching TV. Reality TV as such as made such see things in such a narrow point of view. This people are definitely disturbed to adopt such a lifestyle. If he/she were normal and did not come under strange influences, they wouldn't be doing such extreme things. After all as a child, we do not have such dreams and is this what we call 'maturity'? I think plastic surgery and the belief of exterior beauty combined with reality TV and the increasing rates of alternative lifestyles degrade what is supposedly normal. I can't accept this as I do not believe that Man under minor or major circumstances should do such a thing. It degrades morals and values, don't you think so? What was right and appropriate is now twisted into 'acceptance'. I would rather people discourage such lifestyles instead of criticising it.

 

I wonder how "alternative" something in the mainstream can be? I certainly don't see the connection between boyband dross like Linkin Park or Avril Lavigne and man having "infinite mind potential and is going to EVOLVE to a higher state of consciousness".

I used to be a fan of Linkin Park themselves. 'Alternative' music also mainstream can change a person. I have seen it. The lyrics of certain songs do change a person's way of thinking. I have a personal close friend who under the influence of such dark music has led herself to self-infliction of pain and thoughts of suicide. Many personalities are also affected. For me I myself listen to a range of music such as classical, trance, house and progressive. It is ironic though. But the power of music is certainly strong.

 

Are you talking about this (AMD Opteron 246)? Do you have a cite for it being able to store "every detail" of everyone on Earth? Exactly what do you mean by "every deatail"? How would all this information be gathered? There's an infinite amount of details that could be stored about any one individual.

Yes logically. You might have heard of some advances of late, about supercomputers able to do trillions of calcilations and being able to store terabytes of data and exchanging a load of data in a matter of seconds. By the meaning of 'every detail' I do not mean everything, but rather personal information of their lives, including their location of the past day, things like that. Sort of like the 'Big Brother' conspiracy. My country uses an ez-link card for public train and bus transport and our data of our locations is stored daily. We can even purchase MacDonalds with this cards. This technology is the first step of the cashless society.

 

Finally, you ask great questions and I find pleasure in answering your questions. I am not trying to make a point, rather, I just want to educate people what is really happening, although my writing is not really convincing in a way.

 

 

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It's not really a good idea to engage in spritualism or the supernatural, especially when you don't know what your messing.

Ah, but, both Derren and I do believe we know with what we're messing. The way a ouija board works is through tiny involuntary muscle spasms which move the glass according to your subconsious.

 

A group of researchers did an experiment with a mixture of believers and non-believers. First they did a seance "normally", and everyone was surprised when it worked. Next, they showed everyone the board, blindfolded them, and continued. Again, it worked. Then they did the same but after blindfolding the volunteers they turned the board round by 180 degrees. It spelled out gibberish. However, upon playing the tape back (it was all being recorded), they saw that had they not turned the board round, the movements of the glass would ahve made sense. They then did the same, except they turned the board upsidedown. Again, the glass moved to where the letters were before the people were blindfolded.

 

And, lest you forget, the spirit that Derren's subjects contacted and "channeled" the details from was actually an actress, not a medical student who had died 30 years ago. The entire story was ficticious, and that they got the made-up details right from the minor clues and suggestions that they were given is further proof that it's all bunk.

 

I cannot emphasise it enough - what they did was the equivalent of channeling the spirit of Darth Vader and revealing details such as his real name being Annikin and that he's an orphan. If it proves anything, it proves that seances are bunk.

 

I have heard of that show, but I haven't the chance to watch it.

I seriously suggest you try to seek some of it out. Here is a page with some video clips on it. http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/M/mindcontrol/video/

 

The one I'd seriously recommend is the second one, the voodoo doll. It's utterly astonishing, and makes quite an eloquent critique of a lot of "New Age" beliefs.

 

But the centuries of practice must have some touch of supernaturality in it[...]

You say this, but why must it? For centuries, it was thought that the way to good health from infection was to open someone's vein and bleed the demons out of them. Merely because this happened for centuries, does that mean that this must also have an element of truth to it? If so, why do antibiotics work?

 

In my country, buddhism here is pretty widespread and chinese mediums are everywhere and can be easily found.

Just out of interest, where are you from?

 

Example being Metaphysics can be linked to geomancy or feng shui, the method of feng shui is seeking supernatural forces to guide them and give them answers for the balance of yin and yang.

Feng Shui is an interesting example, as it's got to be the most misunderstood peice of spiritualism in the west. People think it's all about where you put your sofa, and don't know that 50% of it is about where and how your ancestors are buried. Also, it's not just what hte inside of your building looks like, but the outside, where it's located, what the landscape is like...etc.

 

I think it's a wonderful example of appropriation of an idea that seems "cool" without actually having any understanding of the ideas and beliefs behind it. Quite a good metanym for a lot of New Age beliefs, in fact.

 

First thing we don't understand how it works, secondly we don't understand why it happens.

You can say that about any mental function though. Including sleep, dreams, fear, abstract thought...and so on. Just because we don't necessarily understand the minutae of the workings of something doesn't make it dangerous, nor does it mean that those minutae cannot be understood or don't have an explaination.

 

So far people who practise it, do not have any recollection or accounts of being hypnotised and what they said.

That's simply not true. I've witnessed people who have been under hypnosis remembering everything countless times. On Derren Brown's show, for one.

 

They also seem to have strange vivid memories they never had in their lives. For example, this bloke was put under hypnosis and he recollected memories of his birth and the conversation the doctors had. Strange enough, we understand that babies under 3 years of age do not have the ability to store memories let alone a birth.

Same as abductions and regressions - suggestability coupled with a huge tendency for confabulation.

 

I have no claims but from a book, that some people who has practised extensive yoga and meditation has been diagnosed with personality problems. From what I have read, there are hotlines to help people who suffer split personalities and disturbing voices in the head after an extensive practice of yoga.

Hmm, I can find some things about "Kundalini Syndrome", but the only thing I can find from a credible source is saying that yoga can be an effective treatment to help combat a split personality. I certainly can't find any hotlines about anything of this nature.

 

Have you heard of the ancient Priory of Sion and Illuminati?

Heard of, yes. Believe in the power of, no.

 

I believe that you know of the cashless society plan?

Not really.

 

We will be slaves by then as when he implements his mark on the forehead or right hand, we cannot buy or sell if we do not have this mark.

You could say that we're slaves now, as we cannot buy or sell if we don't carry cash. Or a credit card. Or a debit card. You cannot buy or sell without legal tender - this is true. But it's not a question of this making us into slaves. How will we be "slaves" more than we already are?

 

Ah, but our every detail and location and be traced just by this mark and we would become slaves to him.

As I've said, this is exactly what they said about credit cards, laser scanner at checkouts and Cashpoints when they first arrived. Is this true? Or was it just paranoia back then?

 

The UN charter does not say such a thing, but their goal is simple. They want to unite the world in order to solve all world problems.

Well, forgive me if I don't see uniting the world or solving global problems as a cause for concern. Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

Yes you can say that, I do not have basis in my claims.

I didn't say that. I said that you hadn't shown me the basis for your claims, and that I agreed with what you said, but my data was only anecdotal data, and, as such, that I had no real basis for my claims.

 

But what I say is quite obvious.

What's obvious to one person is not at all obvious to another. We all have personal bias that colours our thinking, no matter how impartial we like to think of ourselves as. This is one of the many reasons why anecdotal data is not, well, it's not actually data, really.

 

We can go back to the Victorian era and say as such, but this modern world has reached a pinnacle in technology and yet, we are still skeptical beings and we fear things that we don't comprehend. Especially when it comes to the end of the world, people fear it but never do anything about it. That thought amuses me how we ignore something right on our faces.

Actually, I think the majority of people aren't skeptical at all. I think they're credulous. People tend to believe things they are told, especially if they're written down or told to them by a trusted authority figure. If I could teach the world one skill, it would be to objectively eveluate the source of everything that they hear, and to be more skeptical.

 

As for fear, that's an entirely natural emotion. what has changed is how people think the world will end. At this moment in time, people fear that their world will end because of terrorism, not because of a rain of fire.

 

It may not seem like a conspiracy for all. But this is done to prepare the future generations to embrace the New Age unknowingly.

Done by who and how? The main cause of the spread of Eastern mysticism to the West was the Beatles going to India. At the time they were very anti-establishment, and the establishment were trying to suppress them. Are you trying to say that the Beatles were manipulated into this, or that they were part of the conspiracy themselves?

 

But since we are a modern society do we really need such things to interfere with progress?

I would say that the use of drugs in spiritualism has gone down massively in recent times. Compare modern LSD usage to that in the 60s. Also note that LSD in the 60s was much, much stronger than what there is today.

 

We invent, we progressed, we have power, but something overlaps all this, we have more problems instead. What seems good seems to be overwhelmed by cons instead.

Naturally technology is not the answer to all of mankind's problems. It would be naieve to think that it was. Mankind's problems are down to the fact that, essentially, we are all animals that, while we have a highly developed herd and social instinct, we are still ultimately concerned with our personal dominance over others, and the propogation of our own personal genes. We have enough reason to not act instinctively all the time, but these instincts are undeniably the basis for almost everything that we do.

 

I deeply apoglogise for my lack of evidence.

You have absolutely no cause to apologise to me whatsoever.

 

I am only concerned with people really objectively examining their beliefs and, as I said, evaluating their sources correctly. If you realise that you're trusting your sources without examining them critically enough, then it is my belief that you owe it to yourself to do so. Of course, whether you do or not is entirely up to you. If you're happy with what you believe and the evidence that you feel it is based on, then who am I to argue? All I can do is offer my perspective on issues you bring up, and tell you what level of evidence I would find acceptable.

 

I'm a rather lazy person, and I write my evidence based on what I read both online and books. Sadly, I ofter do not remember to record my links down. I'm sorry.

Again, there's no need to apologise. It's just that if you want me to accept what you claim about respected scientists holding these opinions, then I'm going to need to see evidence. I've tried many searches based around what you've said, but can't find anything. I simply thought that as you know what you're talking about more than I dod that you might be able to find a cite more easily.

 

Yeah it works, but the comfort could be part of a placebo effect?

I think you have a very valid point, yes. I'm also of the opinion that a lot of alternative medicines are, at least partially, down to a placebo effect. I'm not sure I'd count massage amongst them, but I'm definately in agreement with you in general.

 

However, the placebo effect itself is a scientifically proven phenomenon. Even if these things are, then that doesn't completely devalue it.

 

Now we see many youths who were intitially straight and are now influenced to engage in this homosexual lifestyle and a struggle for gender identity.

I think it's a very dangerous thing to say that people can be influenced to be gay. It's the age old question, if you believe that it's a choice, then when did you choose to be straight?

 

This again is another step to embrace the New Age.

I don't see how the two have any connection at all.

 

From my personal experience, in girl's schools in my country. I have known many girls who were straight but later became lesbians and it shocked me really.

I would suppose that these girls either pretended to be straight, or you didn't notice that they weren't straight, or they themselves didn't know. Teenage years are ones of great upheval and hormonal changes. Just because someone discovered that they were a lesbian after they left school does not in any way indicate that they were straight and have been somehow "corrupted".

 

They were friends of mine and they were rather normal and it was appalling to accept their new preference.

And maybe this attitude is exactly the reason that they felt they couldn't confide in you in school?

 

Thus accepting homosexuality would only mean that it is right for anyone to do it, under peer influence and media.

Again, I don't believe the "peer pressure" or the "media influence" theory (in fact, the media influence theory for anything gets my goat. There have been numerous studies, and they have all, without fail, shown that to be a load of nonsense.

 

As for it being okay for anyone to be gay...sure. Why not? There's nothing wrong with being gay, so why shouldn't people be free to be who they are?

 

Not accepting homosexuals doesn't make people not be homosexual, it just drives it underground, causes them misery, and leads to discrimination and people getting hurt. I cannot see a single one of those things as being a good thing.

 

Combining this with homosexuality, we can't tell what a person thinks just by watching TV.

Okay, would it make you think that my opinion was more informed if I told you that I was friends with Erik "The Lizardman" Sprague's wife? http://bmeworld.com/amago/ I don't get all my information from the TV.

 

This people are definitely disturbed to adopt such a lifestyle.

This is your opinion, and in my experience is completely wrong. It's rather closed-minded, in fact.

 

I wonder what you would make of me? I'm nowhere near as extreme as Erik or Tom, but I've got long, multi-coloured hair, 8 earrings in my left ear, a nose ring, and a labrette (middle of bottom lip) peircing. I also have two tattoos of my own design on my left arm, and have nearly decided on my 3rd.

 

At what point, I wonder, do you personally believe that normalcy ends?

 

After all as a child, we do not have such dreams and is this what we call 'maturity'?

I'd also be very careful of presuming to know what other people wanted as children. You say that these people didn't have such dreams as children. Do you know this for a fact? Or are you really saying that you didn't have such dreams as a child, and so you presume that everyone else must be of the same mindset?

 

It degrades morals and values, don't you think so?

Define what "morals" and "values" are teh correct ones, and which are also so fragile as to be undermined by someone having their tongue split.

 

No, I don't think it undermines anything, except maybe the irrational xenophobic prejudice of not accepting what is not considered "normal". Especially by people who, themselves, would not be considered "normal" by others. Who decides what is normal? Would you change your lifestyle if you were told it wasn't "normal"? Are non-permanant body-modifications, such as cutting or dying your hair, or having braces to straighten your teeth "normal"? Is dying your hair to a shade of brown "normal", but dying it green abnormal?

 

If you lived in India, it would be normal for you to have your nose peirced. If you were a memebr of certain African tribes, it would be normal for you to have your face permanantly scarred as you became an adult.

 

How do you define "normal"?

 

What was right and appropriate is now twisted into 'acceptance'. I would rather people discourage such lifestyles instead of criticising it.

And I would rather that people were free to be how they feel comfortable without criticism, as long as they didn't hurt anybody else doing so.

 

So, altering yourself to look like a lizrd is far, far more acceptable in my book than speeding in your car. For example.

 

I have a personal close friend who under the influence of such dark music has led herself to self-infliction of pain and thoughts of suicide. Many personalities are also affected.

Or is it that she is attracted to such music because she is depressed for other reasons?

 

What you're saying here is the old censorship argument. It's alright for you to listen to Linkin Park, as they didn't influence you. It's all of those other people who are succeptible.

 

Finally, you ask great questions and I find pleasure in answering your questions.

I'm enjoying talking to you, too. It's nice to converse with someone who doesn't get defensive or offended if I question their beliefs, rather takes it in the spirit in which it's intended.

 

 

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Ah, but, both Derren and I do believe we know with what we're messing. The way a ouija board works is through tiny involuntary muscle spasms which move the glass according to your subconsious.

 

A group of researchers did an experiment with a mixture of believers and non-believers. First they did a seance "normally", and everyone was surprised when it worked. Next, they showed everyone the board, blindfolded them, and continued. Again, it worked. Then they did the same but after blindfolding the volunteers they turned the board round by 180 degrees. It spelled out gibberish. However, upon playing the tape back (it was all being recorded), they saw that had they not turned the board round, the movements of the glass would ahve made sense. They then did the same, except they turned the board upsidedown. Again, the glass moved to where the letters were before the people were blindfolded.

 

And, lest you forget, the spirit that Derren's subjects contacted and "channeled" the details from was actually an actress, not a medical student who had died 30 years ago. The entire story was ficticious, and that they got the made-up details right from the minor clues and suggestions that they were given is further proof that it's all bunk.

 

I cannot emphasise it enough - what they did was the equivalent of channeling the spirit of Darth Vader and revealing details such as his real name being Annikin and that he's an orphan. If it proves anything, it proves that seances are bunk.

It is bunk, but is it really power of the mind, your deep subconscious controlling this 'muscle spams' and 'actions', does your mind really evoke mind memories you never had in your life? Well, let's just say, there really is a God of the Jews and there is also a Satan and his minions of twisted angels. We do know what his goal here is, don't you? You are familiar with his story? He was once the most beautiful and perfect creation of God and as he coveted God's position, he claimed that since God created all things, then ALL things can or must be God. With this idealogy, he led several legions of angels to rebel against God and God threw them into hell for imprisonment. But I must say that Satan resides in hell no longer, he in the bible is know as the Price of the Air and Land. He is right here right now, controlling all evil that happens in the world. So as we with our limited brain capacity have no ability to practise further mind abilities are deceived by this minions of having such powers. Plus, the power of media and influence and groups and seminars have led to people having the idea they might have psychic powers. Some try to develop it, some study it and some ignore it. But the truth is, we do not have such powers, it is only the ruse of demonic forces.

 

I seriously suggest you try to seek some of it out. Here is a page with some video clips on it. http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/M/mindcontrol/video/

 

The one I'd seriously recommend is the second one, the voodoo doll. It's utterly astonishing, and makes quite an eloquent critique of a lot of "New Age" beliefs.

I'm sorry my browser seems to be unable to open the URL.

 

You say this, but why must it? For centuries, it was thought that the way to good health from infection was to open someone's vein and bleed the demons out of them. Merely because this happened for centuries, does that mean that this must also have an element of truth to it? If so, why do antibiotics work?

I have heard of people drilling holes in their head to drive out demons. I would say, they know of something out there something supernatural. Some choose to follow it some choose to ignore it. But in the case of modern era, it is being masked as many things of fun like the oujia board or entertainment even, groups of people on tv trying to bend a fork with their minds. Ah, you are skeptical too, I am too. But my ideas on the forces behind it is different.

 

Just out of interest, where are you from?

I am from Singapore, the country where most people think the laws here are ridiculous, I assure you it is not. Well, it might interest you to know there are chinese, muslims, indians and eurasian (Europeans + Chinese) here and this makes up 4 of our major racial groups.

 

Feng Shui is an interesting example, as it's got to be the most misunderstood peice of spiritualism in the west. People think it's all about where you put your sofa, and don't know that 50% of it is about where and how your ancestors are buried. Also, it's not just what hte inside of your building looks like, but the outside, where it's located, what the landscape is like...etc.

 

I think it's a wonderful example of appropriation of an idea that seems "cool" without actually having any understanding of the ideas and beliefs behind it. Quite a good metanym for a lot of New Age beliefs, in fact.

Ah, many countries declare themselves secular, but in fact many use feng shui to control flow in their countries. For example, the placement of buildings and the designs of structures. My dad once told me a Feng Shui master friend of his told him about the placement of a large statue changing its position because of bad feng shui and there are two buildings which have a large gaping hole in it. From a building if you look at it, it is weird it seems like a large hole letting wind blow through it. People in the west think doing such things are cool and can improve their lives and yet they don't know what they are getting involved in. The New Age is specially prepared of modern man as Cool and Useful and can be practised by ALL.

 

You can say that about any mental function though. Including sleep, dreams, fear, abstract thought...and so on. Just because we don't necessarily understand the minutae of the workings of something doesn't make it dangerous, nor does it mean that those minutae cannot be understood or don't have an explaination.

Ah, people who practise sciene find they have to experiment and try and try until they find the truth in what they don't know. Yes, we don't understand the mind and what we cannot fathom such as willpower and placebo effects. The examplae of Placebo effect is the same as spritual healings. I have heard of accounts of the lame healed and able to work only to fall later back at home and paralysed for life. There are also people who eat 'medicine' prescribed by doctors only to deterioriate their condition any longer. That can't be any good, right?

 

That's simply not true. I've witnessed people who have been under hypnosis remembering everything countless times. On Derren Brown's show, for one.

Obviously the know they are hypnotised. But they don't remember what they said or what they have remembered. However, it is different in another case when they have memories of abductions and birth recollections. I might look into this. BTW, psychology is just another mask to evoke the powers of the 'mind' under science. Christian psychologists, however are not recommended to use trance or hypnosis for treatments.

 

Same as abductions and regressions - suggestability coupled with a huge tendency for confabulation.

Yes, yes it is all the same thing. It is also the same thing for people who see the future or have remote viewing powers under self-hypnosis.

 

Hmm, I can find some things about "Kundalini Syndrome", but the only thing I can find from a credible source is saying that yoga can be an effective treatment to help combat a split personality. I certainly can't find any hotlines about anything of this nature.

Hm, credible source? Might I know where, I find that I cannot trust websites anymore. Especially nutrition and health, both attributes to the use of holistic medicine which I find disturbing. Yoga, as I have said, its positive effects are a mask to 'enlighten' people to practise it, to use meditation to de-stress and give them calming abilities to work well in society. But ah, this hotlines are not so famous and the book I have read from is about nearly a decade ago, so I don't think anything much is published about this hotline. But if you must say I'm gullible, I would say the unprepared yoga practice may lead to the pre-mature control of demonic forces, making it seem like split personalities. Hitler himself had many nightmares and split personalities when he practised meditation. He went into a strange trance, screaming and spams for help from his intrepid and cruel Higher masters. They seemed to be hurting him, I must say.

 

Heard of, yes. Believe in the power of, no.

Well, their purpose is known to people like us, but to believe it seems impossible. Possibly, because they do not want to reveal themselves. Believe it or not, I believe there is a conspiracy and this elusive group.

 

You could say that we're slaves now, as we cannot buy or sell if we don't carry cash. Or a credit card. Or a debit card. You cannot buy or sell without legal tender - this is true. But it's not a question of this making us into slaves. How will we be "slaves" more than we already are?

We are slaves now but we still have the freedom to travel and move. When this mark is implemented, wherever you go satellites can trace you. If you under his rule want to rebel, it is impossible and you would just die because you can't buy or sell. That's more 'slave' than we are right now. Enjoy your freedom.

 

As I've said, this is exactly what they said about credit cards, laser scanner at checkouts and Cashpoints when they first arrived. Is this true? Or was it just paranoia back then?

The paranoia is genuine, but records can be erased it can be manipulated. We can see this through crime. About crime, did you know people were surprised to learn of the Mafia and their international organised crime activities, it was also a conspiracy back then. With the mark and technology, it would seem we cannot run away anymore. We will have no freedom under the Iron Palm of the Anti-Christ.

 

Well, forgive me if I don't see uniting the world or solving global problems as a cause for concern. Sounds like a good idea to me.

It sounds good to all, we are too late to turn back from the abyss. World unity is the only solution, sounds good? It doesn't under the rule of the Man from Hell himself, he is said to have incredible psychic abilities. Hitler's speeches had many men who were christians themselves to be hypnostised during his speeches and thus pledging life allegiance to them. So, being christians doesn't mean we can run away.

 

SORRY I HAVE TO GO OUT NOW. I WILL REPLY THE REST LATER

 

 

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I have an interesting story regarding the ouija board. In high school some of my friends got together and did a session. They invited an adept occultist to join in with the event. He did rituals and read from the Satanic bible. The people had success with the board spelling out with the spirit responding that it was an enemy of God, a christian in the room got angry and broke the board into pieces and threw it into the fire. The fire raged out of control, even long after the board was all burned up. The next night, without the christian in present, they did it again.

 

This time the response was that it was to see the individual who threw "him" into the fire die.

 

It provided a time frame of when it would do so. No one told the christian what happened, but on the last day, in the last minute, the christian guy lost control of his motorcycle and crashed into the curb. He was thrown into the side of a building and was found there dead, in the shape of an upside down cross.

 

Even if merely a coincidence, it still gives me the willys when I think of this event.

 

Anybody that becomes adept at being able to focus their attention, regardless of the means will produce some type of effect within the scope of concentration. One day I got very angry at someone...I mean REALLY angry, if I had a gun I would have shot him dead on the spot, without hesitation. My entire being was foucused on him, the rage felt like it was beaming out of my pupils. He looked at me and almost fell down, he got up and ran away in fear. I never said a word, but somehow he knew my intentions. The rage was driven by past events with unresolved spite, hatred and resentments. The power was immense as it flowed through-out my body, nothing was able to distract my attention from the deep rooted drive to extinguish this guys life. I couldnt even remember what set me off that day, and apologized to him shortly thereafter. It never happened before or since. It was a very strange event.

 

A co-worker has a sister that is a Nun for a childrens hospital in Orange County, California. She told him the story about the day the priest and herself where performing a prayer for a recently passed girl. The priest was doing the rites above the body of the girl, when all of a sudden the girl sat up, opened her eyes and looked around. When she saw the priest she blurted out some foul language with a look of utter hatred set upon her face. Shortly thereafter she fell back...dead as a door knob. Apparently, the Sister sees all kinds of unusual events that she will not discuss with her brother. Another story that gives me the willies when I think about it.

 

I used to play mind games on my friends back in the day, and it amazed me that with little effort they bought into all kinds of fabrications. I even had a visit from the police one night to search my home for the "electronic hallucination inducer" that I told someone I had built. I had showed him a remote control to the t.v. and unknown to me, he was under the influence of mushrooms and thought my invention had caused him to begin hallucinating. On his way home the police stopped him and recognized he was on under the influence of something..prompting them to investigate my invention.

 

We once had people believing in a ghost that appeared to be behind the wheel of a hearse in a small junk yard. If you drove by on a moon-lit night, and looked into the drivers side window at midnight , you would be able see the ghost appear; a hooded figure sitting behind the wheel of the old black Cadillac. I dont know how many people fell for that one...the hooded figure was merely a roll of carpet placed on the seat of the hearse. On a night with the moon in the sky, the lighting and shadows made it look like a ghostly figure.

 

Nobody even looked to see what it really was..they stayed away in fear.

 

Not really in the mood to debate tonight, just some stuff I remembered as I was reading this thread.

 

 

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Oh yeah...just remembered the story of the guy that climbed in with some bears at the zoo and got mauled. He said the bears told him to come on down, everything would be fine. Regardless of my belief system..and whether the bears suddenly gained the power of the english language and told "me" to come on down..sorry smokey..I ain't goin!

 

 

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Clearwater goings on:

 

Askem.com, Answer that you can use?

 

Question submitted by Genny, to starlight347 on aquatic animals.

 

Question:We own an estuary with a small harbor in Florida and when my husband went out to feed the swans, he didn't come back.

 

Stars,Answer:So you looked for him mam?

 

Questioner:Well yes, I did.

 

Answer:Did you find him?

 

Quest:Yes.

 

Ans:Alive?

 

Quest:No.

 

Ans:A little more info please..?

 

Quest:Well he was bitten inhalf by something, something in the estuary.He's dead!

 

Ans:I think that this is a problem for the police and emergency medic mam?

 

Quest:Ahhhhh' no, this was a creature, it's very big and it's still in the pond.

 

Ans:Please describe it mam?

 

Quest:Well' it's a shark of some kind, but the fin on its back that rises out of the water, is about seven feet in height.

 

Ans:This is a dredged out harbor?

 

Quest:Yes

 

Ans:Can you describe what you have seen of this shark?

 

Quest:It's about,..mmmmmhmm, about sixty feet long, very dark, almost a dusky green on its back.

 

Wide at the head, about fifteen feet across.

 

Ans:Did you see its eye?

 

Quest:Wait I'll go look!?

 

Ans:Oh no lady' don't go out on the fu*king dock, that thing will..........Oh well.......

 

Quest:It seems friendly now that's it eaten, well half of my husband at least.

 

It has an eye about the size of a soccer ball.

 

Ans:Oh crap.......I think what you've got in your pond mam, is a Megladoncarcarkadon, or giant prehistoric shark.

 

Quest:Well' are they dangerous?

 

Ans:Bit your husband in-two mam, wouldn't exactly call it a house or an aquarium pet, mam.

 

Ans:You had a question to ask here, are you done and if so would you rate my answer please?

 

Quest:My question has not been asked.I'll do that now.

 

I'm afraid that the government or someone will come in and take my husband away, since he was not killed by a normal creature.

 

I also, kind-of, like the shark, for some reason and don't want it hurt.

 

Ans:Hugh?

 

Quest:Well' I mean it was only doing what it did naturally and really didn't mean to bite my husband in-half.

 

I mean afterall, if left half of him on the beach, as I think that puddy felt guilty.

 

Ans:Puddy......?

 

Quest:Yes Puddy, I've already named him............But there is the question of both security and insurance and the government confiscating him and me not getting anything in return.

 

What do I do in this forinstance, please?

 

Ans:Well' there is the CIA, which deals in intelligence, but they dont operate domestically, or are not supposed to at least.

 

Then there is the NSA, but they only deal with domestic threats to internal security.

 

There is the Homeland Security, but do you think that this shark is an international terrorist?

 

Quest:No, he does not look to be of foreign extraction, or associated with Al Quida.

 

Ans:There is the DIA,.....NRO,....the SCPCA.Mmmm, I would say the FBI mam.

 

Quest:Oh' then I'll call the FBI.

 

Ans:Before you go, I would try to have them cut you a deal, as you don't want this hitting the press, as it would hurt the tourist industry.They just might take the shark and what is left of your husband and not give you anything?

 

Quest:Oh?

 

Ans:Here's what you do, call them and say that a loved on had died of alien-like circumstances, but want to see if you can barrow in the economic sense, so that they will give your husband and alternate ending.

 

This way you get the insurance claim and what's coming to you, but the shark might have to go, however this will look as if it were an accident.

 

Quest:But it was an accident and I don't thing Puddy really meant to.....

 

Ans:Keep calm, for the time being, I know this guy in west Hollywood and he makes fiberglass replicates, for people; if you can get him a copy of the person that you want a fiberglass copy made of.

 

Quest:Why do this?

 

Ans:So that you can time the accident........With a replicant, you can drive around with you husband, so that everyone will think that he's still alive.

 

Quest:Well if he does not move or something, won't that look kind-of suspicious?

 

Ans:No, my friend had replications that even waive and smile.

 

Quest:Oh,........that's different?

 

Ans:The body now, where is it mam?

 

Quest:Well it's down by the beach, in a Super-strength Trash can liner.

 

Ans:Okay' here is what you do, you back you truck; have a truck?

 

Quest:Yes I we have a pickup.

 

Ans:Down to the body and lift it in using nylon ropes and then put it in your freezer.

 

Then call the special investigations division of the FBI and say to them, to confidentially come to you house, as you husband was killed by an unusual creature, but you want to know if you can bargain the worth of the creature, so that they can give your husband an alternate ending?

 

Quest:Okay I think I've got it and thank you so much!

 

By the way, please rate this answer that I've given you with the stars numbered one to five, with five stars, as the most useful rating and thank you for writing Askem.com for answers that you can use! :)

 

Questioner gives rateing of ***** and a :)

 

PRESS RELEASE, UPI:A Clearwater man was found today in shallow water, as the result of his private small engined plane, malfunctioning on takeoff.

 

The FAA authorities were notified and an investigation into the nature of this crash will be conducted pending notification of next of kin.

 

PRESS RELEASE, CLEARWATER FLA: A heated argument broke out Tuesday, over claims that a number of small dogs and water fowl are showing up missing.

 

The area of concern is a small dredged personal harbor owned by a late businessman, who had died as a result of a private aircraft mishap.

 

Local officials had to detain a local resident, who attired in hair curlers, and a bathrobe, shouting at the in-question estate, yelling at the top of her voice, "I've seen her go to the water and pet that great black monster.

 

I know that beast ate my Fluffy and many others like it.....The government is in on this, I just know it.

 

 

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Scientists are duped to using witchcraft and holistic/traditional healing under the name of science, embracing a new age movement.

Okay, not to be overly rude, friend nicknack, but what the hell does the New Age movement have to do with modern science?

 

The New Age movement appeals to many people who desire truth, money, inner peace, money, absolution from the guilt of wanting money, and money. It borrows heavily from Eastern spiritual traditions, but the movement itself is all about allowing the yuppie offspring of the original hippies deal with the guilt of growing up in the "me" generation and becoming yuppies.

 

I've grown up with the unspeakable torture of New Ager parents. From the outside, the New Age looks appealing to many people. Growing up within it, it has been revealed to me as the trendy sham that it is; barely classifiable as religion, and a major money farm for opportunistic snake-oil salesmen.

 

From what I've seen, New Age and modern science have nothing to do with one another. In fact, they are basically at odds. Science typically rejects all that 2nd-hand hippie mumbo jumbo outright, and New Agers tend to think of science as mechanistic, impersonal, and without the REAL truth.

 

But the whole debate is silly. Science is in a different category from New Age and from spiritual pursuit in general. You see nicknack, you are quite mistaken in one major respect. It is a mistake that many people, especially spiritually minded people (myself included) often make. It is as follows.

 

Science isn't about Truth with a capital T. Science is about working models for various natural systems. Even scientists seem to forget this sometimes. The goal of EXPERIMENTAL science is not so much to reveal the deep underlying nature of things as to come up with a knowledge of what results are predictable under particular circumstances. It is to devise models that DESCRIBE the world from first principles, but these models do not necessarily have anything to do with truth. Truth as an ideal is in the realm of religion, philosophy, and so-called metaphysics.

 

Science makes no assumptions about the fundamental truth or meaning of reality. It is only interested in reproducible results and working models. Of course when science is used by people as religion, it becomes as sanctimonious and dogmatic as anything else, but on its own science is not religion. Science is science. Religion is religion. Ideally, the two do not impinge on one another's territories.

 

I don't know what scientists you've been talking to who believe all men can be gods, but they don't sound like very reputable scientists. I'd like to see their credentials. Science is concerned with allowing men (and women) to be healthier, smarter, happier, and longer lived. However, to want to make men like gods would seem to entail presuming that gods exist. This is beyond experimental verification, and is therefore beyond the realm of science. THAT'S WHY RELIGION IS AROUND. The two things are not at war, or at least they shouldn't be. They deal with different areas of human experience. Science does not strictly deny the existence of God or of cosmic meaning. It is simply not concerned with them.

 

 

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[...]does your mind really evoke mind memories you never had in your life?

Last night, I dreamt that my contortionist cowboy friend with a broken back gave me his Victorian-era flying car which was stored in the relocated garage that my dad used to own when I was a teenager. By doing so, we managed to foil the evil John Lithgow and his sidekick.

 

Yes, I'd say that the mind is capable of confabulation.

 

Well, let's just say, there really is a God of the Jews and there is also a Satan and his minions of twisted angels.

That's your belief. Not mine.

 

You are familiar with his story? He was once the most beautiful and perfect creation of God and as he coveted God's position, he claimed that since God created all things, then ALL things can or must be God.

Actually, I always thought that Satan got a bad rap. Let us not forget that the only documents we have chronicalling this time were written by the winning side, many years after the fact. They are, essentially, propaganda for the victors. I suspect the truth of the story (well, I don't believe any of it's true, but if it were...) is a lot closer to the version told in the Pete & Dud original Bedazzled.

 

But, even with this propaganda in place, the story isn't quite as it's commonly thought. Re-read the story of the Garden of Eden. Satan tells the truth. God lies. And, yes, Adam and Eve are expelled from Eden because God is worried that they will eat from the Tree of Life, becoming immortal, and therefore equally as powerful as him.

 

If you believe what is written in the Bible to be the literal truth, then Satan was actually right.

 

Some try to develop it, some study it and some ignore it. But the truth is, we do not have such powers, it is only the ruse of demonic forces.

I would say that it's cynical exploitative people like John Edwards that are partially responsible for this nonsense. Mainly, though, it's people's credulity and desire to believe in something higher than themselves, and to feel "special". No demons involved.

 

I'm sorry my browser seems to be unable to open the URL.

Try the cache: http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:0X8fxeLkJLkJ:www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/M/mindcontrol/video/+derren+brown+voodoo&hl=en

 

There's also a text-only version of the site, but it doesn't have the clips. Still interesting, though: http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/M/mindcontrol/index_t.html

 

It's probably worth trying again, as there was major, major stuff that happened on Big Brother last night, so I imagine the Channel 4 website as a whole was innundated with hits. If you still can't do so, I'd seriously try a different computer and/or browser. You do owe it to yourself to see the voodoo demonstration, as it is not only a wonderful example of mental manipulation, it also makes some very good points about the nature of New Age beliefs, and beliefs in general. It's very powerful.

 

I have heard of people drilling holes in their head to drive out demons. I would say, they know of something out there something supernatural.

I would say that they are nutters. Why would someone drilling a hole in their heads necessarily mean there was something supernatural going on? Is this just if they do it to excorsise demons, or does trepanning for the pseudo-scientific reasons count, too?

 

But in the case of modern era, it is being masked as many things of fun like the oujia board or entertainment even, groups of people on tv trying to bend a fork with their minds.

Spoonbending was thoroughly debunked in the 70s.

 

People in the west think doing such things are cool and can improve their lives and yet they don't know what they are getting involved in.

People in the West aren't involved in Feng Shui. If you haven't buried your ancestors in certain ways, you're not doing Feng Shui. Simple as.

 

I have heard of accounts of the lame healed and able to work only to fall later back at home and paralysed for life.

Reliable accounts? And could these things be explained by adrenaline surges?

 

There are also people who eat 'medicine' prescribed by doctors only to deterioriate their condition any longer.

I can't quite understand what you're saying with this sentence, but, no, medicine cannot cure everything.

 

Obviously the know they are hypnotised. But they don't remember what they said or what they have remembered.

That's a myth, pure and simple. Unless given the hypnotic suggestion that you won't rememeber anything (and let us not forget that all hypnotic suggestions can be resisted), then you will remember everything.

 

BTW, psychology is just another mask to evoke the powers of the 'mind' under science.

Well, that's pretty much the definition of the word, from the Greek: "Psyche" - mind, "Logos" - scholarly study of. nothing to do with anything outside the mind, though.

 

Yes, yes it is all the same thing. It is also the same thing for people who see the future or have remote viewing powers under self-hypnosis.

Well, there's evidence to suggest that remote viewing is more like lucid dreaming, but yes, it's all self-delusion.

 

BTW, if anyone believes that they really can do remote viewing, the acid test is to have an independant volunteer write something on a peice of paper, and put in in a different room, never letting you see the paper. You should then be able to tell them what's on the paper.

 

And, if anyone can actually do this (or anything else paranormal), then get in contact with James Randi, and earn yourself a quick and easy $1,000,000. You can give me a percentage as a "finders fee", if you like. http://www.randi.org/research/

 

Might I know where, I find that I cannot trust websites anymore.

I can't find it again today (though, in truth, I haven't looked too hard). But it was from a medical site.

 

Websites aren't inherently less trustworthy than any other medium. Some sites are generally trustworthy (and official medical ones would tend to fall into this category), some are partially trustworthy (FOX news or Al-Jazeera will report some facts, but also some lies, and have a tendency to editorialise, for example) and some are completely untrustworthy (any site that details a hollow Earth while not explaining how the physics doesn't add up would be very shady). Of course, it's wise to be skeptical with regards to all information, no matter the source. But websites are no less trustworthy in and of themselves than books, newspapers, television or anything else.

 

Hitler himself had many nightmares and split personalities when he practised meditation. He went into a strange trance, screaming and spams for help from his intrepid and cruel Higher masters. They seemed to be hurting him, I must say.

Hitler was taking massive amounts of amphetamines and methamphetamines (among other things) on a daily basis. What you describe sounds about par for the course, with absolutely no need for demons of any kind (except maybe figurative ones).

 

Well, their purpose is known to people like us, but to believe it seems impossible. Possibly, because they do not want to reveal themselves.

I don't believe in their power because one look at world politics should be enough to disprove most of the theories surrounding them.

 

If you under his rule want to rebel, it is impossible and you would just die because you can't buy or sell.

What do you mean by "rebel"? Are we talking about selling nuclear secrets to "the enemy"?

 

World unity is the only solution, sounds good? It doesn't under the rule of the Man from Hell himself, he is said to have incredible psychic abilities.

The way that the UN wants to unite the world is in the manner of disparate groups working together to solve the world's problems, rather than fighting amongst themselves. I don't see the problem with that.

 

Of course the entire world under the rule of just one man would be prone to corruption. That's not what is being proposed at all. It is, in fact, something that the UN will fight against, and has explicit rules about.

 

You've also not explained what the problem is with solving the world's problems.

 

So, being christians doesn't mean we can run away.

I'm not Christian.

 

OMG! I didn't post my FINAL reply, ugh, it was so ardous too, I apologise. I do not want to do it again.

Always, but always make a copy of what you've typed in notepad before hitting "reply", if it's a long reply. Of course, accidents still happen. This is actually the second time I've typed this whole reply out.

 

But "arduous"? All it is is typing out your thoughts and beliefs. I worked 14 1/2 hours yesterday, and I still managed it twice.

 

 

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I have an interesting story regarding the ouija board. In high school some of my friends got together and did a session. They invited an adept occultist to join in with the event.

A friend of a friend, eh? That old urban legend standby.

 

Not even going into the unlikely, innaccurate or impossible aspects of your story in any depth (the Satanic Bible actually has little to do with Satan, how do you find someone in the shape of an upside-down cross on a wall?), this makes the whole thing very suspicious. As an amatuer folklorist, you'll be amazed at how many times the whole FoaF things turns up, and for how many clearly made-up and/or impossible things. I bet you know someone who knows someone who was in a swimming pool and urinated, except it was one of those pools that has the chemical that turns the water purple in the presence of urine? Except, of course, that that chemical doesn't exist, and even if it did, there's no way that a commercial pool would use one. It'd be commerical suicide. You don't want to know how many people believe the Pop Rocks and Coke thing.

 

Can I assume that you've had the details verified from a reliable independant source? What was the name of this occultist? Was his death in the paper, or on the local television news? What did they have to say about the inverted crucifix?

 

 

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Okay, not to be overly rude, friend nicknack, but what the hell does the New Age movement have to do with modern science?

I understand what you people see in my replies here. But sorry to tell you, you have misunderstood my concept. I do not marry science into the New Age or religion whatsoever. I was talking about specific areas of science which is branched out to psychology and other mind studies. Quantum physics, chemistry etc does not have anything to do with it or none that I know of.

 

I understand the New Age concept too, living in a muli-religious and racial enviroment combined with western culture and the growing New Age activities around here. It is a sham however, not the little of what you think but a major conspiracy and it involves the world. I don't ask you to believe me. I do not have credentials in my sayings, all I can prove is from the books that I have read. Anyway about the scientists thing, it is personal and it doesn't involve everyone, just a certain few. Just to let you know, Alber Einstein himself believed in God-men and a new cosmic religion. Don't believe me? Find some quotes that he says about religion, I recently this quote outside at a Buddhist Temple. If you didn't know, Isaac Newton himself was a Freemason and had close accquaintances who were deeply involved in the occult. This can be found on the internet, and I will try to source for it when I have the time.

 

Basically, I would like to say your thinking is all passe. This religion and science thing is no longer at odds with each other. What have you read about acupunture and massages or Tai Chi which did not have any scientific basis end up having proof and explanations about how it works? The essence of such treatments orginally was spiritual and it did not require science to explain it. Now, with science all we can say it is balancing the CHI in your body? Where do you find CHI in medical science? What do you see in witch doctors treating people by going into a trance state and whispering nonsense have a scientific explanation or a theory at least? To sum it all up, I'm saying that the New Age movement is using science to mask what seems backward and traditional to appeal to worldwide consumers, ordinary people like us or your parents for example. I understand your frustrations about the New Age, but you have to see it in another point of view.

 

 

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Last night, I dreamt that my contortionist cowboy friend with a broken back gave me his Victorian-era flying car which was stored in the relocated garage that my dad used to own when I was a teenager. By doing so, we managed to foil the evil John Lithgow and his sidekick.

 

Yes, I'd say that the mind is capable of confabulation.

I would seperate dreams from memories. They are different. Although both can be induced by the imagination in your mind, however, dreams are things that are conjured by your awaken mind, the cause I don't know. However memories can come to you whether you remember it or not. For example you memorise a scene but you do not memorise its absolute details and some of these details are then set up in your mind that has never existed here before. I have learnt from Discovery channel that the reason we don't remember things is because at the center of our brain, there is filter channelling memories. It helps you to filter out large chunks of memory so that you do not overload. However, autistic people do not have this filter and some are extremely capable of memorising details. This autistic person could use both eyes to read both sides of a book at once and memorised its details. Another guy could see a large concrete jungle scenery and could draw everything out to detail including the number of details. However, this also leads side effects like being anti-social and being withdrawn from everything as the brain gets confused very easily without the filter.

 

That's your belief. Not mine.

I was just quoting an example. 'Lets just say'.

 

Actually, I always thought that Satan got a bad rap. Let us not forget that the only documents we have chronicalling this time were written by the winning side, many years after the fact. They are, essentially, propaganda for the victors. I suspect the truth of the story (well, I don't believe any of it's true, but if it were...) is a lot closer to the version told in the Pete & Dud original Bedazzled.

 

But, even with this propaganda in place, the story isn't quite as it's commonly thought. Re-read the story of the Garden of Eden. Satan tells the truth. God lies. And, yes, Adam and Eve are expelled from Eden because God is worried that they will eat from the Tree of Life, becoming immortal, and therefore equally as powerful as him.

 

If you believe what is written in the Bible to be the literal truth, then Satan was actually right.

There's a flaw in that reasoning. You see, if he knew Adam and Eve could potentially eat from the Tree of Life, why would he put it there? Doesn't he have absolute control? Didn't he create the world? The Tree of Life was planted to test their faith to him. That was the only absolute way to rebel against him, by eating the Tree of Life. Everything placed on earth at that time had a reason.

 

The bible is already 3000 years old, written by different authors for each book. It is pretty obvious who is bad here, yeah? I don't see it essential why we should pledge allegiance to Satan? After all, doesn't Satanism has an anything-goes philsophy? Their ultimate virtue is do anything you desire, murder, slaughter, rape, rob, steal, commit adultery! There is no right and wrong, no evil, just something created from the mind! That's satanism and this is the idealogy of Satan himself, do you think you should believe in a total lawless and absolutely corrupted religion as such? Imagine what happens if society becomes like that? The victor is God, you don't see Jesus succumbing to temptation and he willingly died for Man. As he was in the human form, he himself felt pain, and he died for us. This does not seem so great, it's just another Man dying and he may not even be God. But in my view, he is a God our creator, who has humbled himself to die. In Satanism, what does Satan do besides giving in to temptations, promote corruption and evil? It is obvious who is good or bad.

 

I would say that it's cynical exploitative people like John Edwards that are partially responsible for this nonsense. Mainly, though, it's people's credulity and desire to believe in something higher than themselves, and to feel "special". No demons involved.

If this people could do it and yet it wasn't done by them? Then who did? Surely something supernatural was involved, there is no better reasoning besides demonic forces. They may not be omnipresent, but they are everywhere by the numbers. Just like having a guardian angel, there are demons that haunt you.

 

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:0X8fxeLkJLkJ:www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/M/mindcontrol/video/+derren+brown+voodoo&hl=en[/url]

There's also a text-only version of the site, but it doesn't have the clips. Still interesting, though: http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/M/mindcontrol/index_t.html

 

It's probably worth trying again, as there was major, major stuff that happened on Big Brother last night, so I imagine the Channel 4 website as a whole was innundated with hits. If you still can't do so, I'd seriously try a different computer and/or browser. You do owe it to yourself to see the voodoo demonstration, as it is not only a wonderful example of mental manipulation, it also makes some very good points about the nature of New Age beliefs, and beliefs in general. It's very powerful.]

Thanks. I can see it now.

 

would say that they are nutters. Why would someone drilling a hole in their heads necessarily mean there was something supernatural going on? Is this just if they do it to excorsise demons, or does trepanning for the pseudo-scientific reasons count, too?

Well, they are dead. They belonged in the medieval era.

 

Spoonbending was thoroughly debunked in the 70s.

Really? I didn't know that although it doesn't seem as popular as before.

 

People in the West aren't involved in Feng Shui. If you haven't buried your ancestors in certain ways, you're not doing Feng Shui. Simple as.

It is growing in popularity over there though, soon you will find it all over the States.

 

Reliable accounts? And could these things be explained by adrenaline surges?

Or the placebo effect? Have you heard of Animal Magnetism? It was formed by this guy called Coue. He used the power of magnets to heal, later he found out he didn't need to use magnets anymore, just his mind. He then re-named this to Animal Magnetism. His favourite quote was Everyday in Everyway, I get better and better. This quote was used in a Garfield strip recently. People use to chant that phrase with him. However, when his group grew larger and such healing became the norm, he started losing his powers and it soon died down. It was revived in the 60s later by Benjamin Creme.

 

I can't quite understand what you're saying with this sentence, but, no, medicine cannot cure everything.

The medicine is the product of the placebo effect, which is nothing more than sugar pills or vitamins that end up deterioating the patient's condition instead of improving it, with the use of placebo effect of course.

 

That's a myth, pure and simple. Unless given the hypnotic suggestion that you won't rememeber anything (and let us not forget that all hypnotic suggestions can be resisted), then you will remember everything.

I didn't know that, thanks for telling me. However, hypnosis auto-suggested or by the use of others are still the same though. I believe there is an article out there one why some states or possibly the country has banned the use of hypnotism for crime investigation.

 

Well, that's pretty much the definition of the word, from the Greek: "Psyche" - mind, "Logos" - scholarly study of. nothing to do with anything outside the mind, though.

I agree.

 

Well, there's evidence to suggest that remote viewing is more like lucid dreaming, but yes, it's all self-delusion.

 

BTW, if anyone believes that they really can do remote viewing, the acid test is to have an independant volunteer write something on a peice of paper, and put in in a different room, never letting you see the paper. You should then be able to tell them what's on the paper.

 

And, if anyone can actually do this (or anything else paranormal), then get in contact with James Randi, and earn yourself a quick and easy $1,000,000. You can give me a percentage as a "finders fee", if you like. http://www.randi.org/research/

Hm, strangely the military are also using remote views in hope of discovering plans or spy on their enemies. In the Bible, there is this story of a woman who could tell the future and she suddenly spoke aloud in the presence of Jesus. He put his hand on the woman's head and cast the demon out of her, and she lost her powers, period.

 

I can't find it again today (though, in truth, I haven't looked too hard). But it was from a medical site.

 

Websites aren't inherently less trustworthy than any other medium. Some sites are generally trustworthy (and official medical ones would tend to fall into this category), some are partially trustworthy (FOX news or Al-Jazeera will report some facts, but also some lies, and have a tendency to editorialise, for example) and some are completely untrustworthy (any site that details a hollow Earth while not explaining how the physics doesn't add up would be very shady). Of course, it's wise to be skeptical with regards to all information, no matter the source. But websites are no less trustworthy in and of themselves than books, newspapers, television or anything else.

I would say trustworthy sites usually does not have much of a research basis on its own but stories, ideas, articles that are taken from a 'credible' source, some only has minimal research done and it would require manpower to fully investigate a situation.

 

Hitler was taking massive amounts of amphetamines and methamphetamines (among other things) on a daily basis. What you describe sounds about par for the course, with absolutely no need for demons of any kind (except maybe figurative ones).

Hm, it could be the effects of these trance inducing drugs. It was said he took these to hasten his meditation levels in order to become a God-man quickly. There are 2 steps to achieve 'enlightenment', through ardous years of meditation like Buddha or take trance-inducing druge to duplicate the same effect to hasten the 'years'.

 

I don't believe in their power because one look at world politics should be enough to disprove most of the theories surrounding them.

Well, it would seem that the world would never be rid of problems and I believed some of these 'problems' were done on purpose. The only thing I know these groups are involved in, is the total control of finances.

 

What do you mean by "rebel"? Are we talking about selling nuclear secrets to "the enemy"?

No, for example, going against him in a political or physical way. He would easily annihilate them by 'blackmailing' them with their 'marks'. After all, he controls all finances that the world is crime-free under him, meaning no one is able to trade in the black market anymore, thus no nuclear weapons for anyone to rebel.

 

The way that the UN wants to unite the world is in the manner of disparate groups working together to solve the world's problems, rather than fighting amongst themselves. I don't see the problem with that.

 

Of course the entire world under the rule of just one man would be prone to corruption. That's not what is being proposed at all. It is, in fact, something that the UN will fight against, and has explicit rules about.

 

You've also not explained what the problem is with solving the world's problems.

The one-man rule would have a Cabinet of some kind, but he will be somebody that world can trust and he is the one who has the power to control all, finances etc. Well, you do know that opinions differ and there are many aspects to take into consideration. No matter how small the group, there would still be a number of representatives who will eventually decide that it is unfair. We have ambassadors, but they can't solve all problems either.

 

I'm not Christian.

Well, I know. I mean the specific group of christians. They are not given special treatment in any way. We are all normal.

 

Always, but always make a copy of what you've typed in notepad before hitting "reply", if it's a long reply. Of course, accidents still happen. This is actually the second time I've typed this whole reply out.

 

But "arduous"? All it is is typing out your thoughts and beliefs. I worked 14 1/2 hours yesterday, and I still managed it twice.

Ok. It is frustrating and tiring to type it all out again. All my replies include 1 hour plus of typing plus thinking. I'm typing this after 6 hours of math tuition.

 

 

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I have an interesting story regarding the ouija board. In high school some of my friends got together and did a session. They invited an adept occultist to join in with the event.

Ah, the old urban legend theory. It is true however, the way it morphs into a exaggerating hoax. Such stories are highly incredible and are not trustworthy in anyway unless it is of truthful personal experience perhaps or written down with credibility or recorded down. I have read about FoaF last year and found it to be extremely true. Why, a common cure for nosebleeds (which I frequently have) is to hold ur head up to let the blood clot. We now know we should tilt our head slightly forward, apply direct pressure at the bridge of the nose to stop the bleeding. I argued with my mom over this and tried to explain to her it was an old wives tale. Alas, the power of urban legends dominates homemakers like her. I don't blame her, there are many gullible ones like her too.

 

 

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I really don't think I've got time to do this today. As I've said, I've been working 14 and a half hour days, and this is the first time I've been home in 5 days. I'm sorry if, in this situation I don't find doing 6 hours of maths tuition to be in quite the same league. My work is both physically and mentally demanding, and yet I still manage.

 

Please answer my questions and comments regarding the second portion of your post, as it is, to me, possibly the most important issues that need addressing. Your refusal to answer sounds more like an excuse than anything else.

 

 

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I really don't think I've got time to do this today. As I've said, I've been working 14 and a half hour days, and this is the first time I've been home in 5 days. I'm sorry if, in this situation I don't find doing 6 hours of maths tuition to be in quite the same league. My work is both physically and mentally demanding, and yet I still manage.

 

Please answer my questions and comments regarding the second portion of your post, as it is, to me, possibly the most important issues that need addressing. Your refusal to answer sounds more like an excuse than anything else.

I'm sorry to hear about your work predicament.

 

It is demanding and a stressful year to me. It is my GCE 'O' levels year and the pressure is immense. I have tons of homework and I have tuition everyday. To satisfy you, I shall answer where I left off.

 

I didn't say that. I said that you hadn't shown me the basis for your claims, and that I agreed with what you said, but my data was only anecdotal data, and, as such, that I had no real basis for my claims.

Same same I suppose, my data are all based on books and I have not sourced from any websites of late. Therefore, it is up to you to believe me.

 

What's obvious to one person is not at all obvious to another. We all have personal bias that colours our thinking, no matter how impartial we like to think of ourselves as. This is one of the many reasons why anecdotal data is not, well, it's not actually data, really.

Alright, I have to agree on that. I guess no one ever agress on one thing in this world, sometimes, even facts.

 

Actually, I think the majority of people aren't skeptical at all. I think they're credulous. People tend to believe things they are told, especially if they're written down or told to them by a trusted authority figure. If I could teach the world one skill, it would be to objectively eveluate the source of everything that they hear, and to be more skeptical.

 

As for fear, that's an entirely natural emotion. what has changed is how people think the world will end. At this moment in time, people fear that their world will end because of terrorism, not because of a rain of fire.

I would say the people were more gullible back then, they didn't have proof for anything or modern science to back 'ghosts' and the 'supernatural' up, they just knew it was there. Being skeptical is right, anyone has the right to be, it is a good skill.

 

Here's a nice link for people who are skeptics on the supernatural.

 

Skeptic Dictionary

 

Fear was here since the beginning of Man, back as long as the 12th century people believed the world was ending. Whether if it was the sky was falling down or the 12 eagles were a sign of a bad omen, it was the same fear we have today. Constant rife in the world everyday serves as a side dish to our fears. I guess what powers fear is ultimately death.

 

Done by who and how? The main cause of the spread of Eastern mysticism to the West was the Beatles going to India. At the time they were very anti-establishment, and the establishment were trying to suppress them. Are you trying to say that the Beatles were manipulated into this, or that they were part of the conspiracy themselves?

The Beatles were rather hippy-like, like John Lennon, his wife Yoko Ono, and now his son Sean Lennon. Many people in the world today are unsuspectingly manipulated into spreading the New Age movement. If my memory serves me right, I seem to remember a small passage in the book about the Beatles, but it was rather minor. Yoga teachers, like the many here, used to be the non-believing citizen here but were crossed into the New Age after taking up yoga.

 

I would say that the use of drugs in spiritualism has gone down massively in recent times. Compare modern LSD usage to that in the 60s. Also note that LSD in the 60s was much, much stronger than what there is today.

But there is still crack and ice going around, although not as strong, but it proved to have the same effect, after all the Red Indians used it themselves. Yes, law enforcement indeed has cut down the rates. But drug trafficking is still rampant in all parts of the world, including Singapore. It is easily available, the sensation of high as described by takers are also similar to the high felt in meditation.

 

Naturally technology is not the answer to all of mankind's problems. It would be naieve to think that it was. Mankind's problems are down to the fact that, essentially, we are all animals that, while we have a highly developed herd and social instinct, we are still ultimately concerned with our personal dominance over others, and the propogation of our own personal genes. We have enough reason to not act instinctively all the time, but these instincts are undeniably the basis for almost everything that we do.

Ah, but it is an irony yeah? Technology is supposed to help mankind, but yet it seems to create more problems. We have instincts like animals, but we have emotions, bad ones and good ones. It seems that emotions overpower us in no matter what we do, it controls us, and it defiles us. That's what makes Man interesting.

 

You have absolutely no cause to apologise to me whatsoever.

 

I am only concerned with people really objectively examining their beliefs and, as I said, evaluating their sources correctly. If you realise that you're trusting your sources without examining them critically enough, then it is my belief that you owe it to yourself to do so. Of course, whether you do or not is entirely up to you. If you're happy with what you believe and the evidence that you feel it is based on, then who am I to argue? All I can do is offer my perspective on issues you bring up, and tell you what level of evidence I would find acceptable.

I may be too trusting, but I do have my limits in trust. I will ask myself to think whether it is really remotely possible. Some facts we cannot face it, some is too extreme but yet if we become too trusting, it becomes disillusional. The element of trust therefore, is up to a person's standard on a believeable basis.

 

I think you have a very valid point, yes. I'm also of the opinion that a lot of alternative medicines are, at least partially, down to a placebo effect. I'm not sure I'd count massage amongst them, but I'm definately in agreement with you in general.

 

However, the placebo effect itself is a scientifically proven phenomenon. Even if these things are, then that doesn't completely devalue it.

Valid as it is, it can't be entirely placebo either, although it seems to play a major part in most alternative medicine. It is proven, but it fails too, many a time too major to ignore. I rather base on proven things like drugs and medicine which has a proven and definite way to heal. Phenomenon to me is none other than unsolved things, especially on a theory.

 

I think it's a very dangerous thing to say that people can be influenced to be gay. It's the age old question, if you believe that it's a choice, then when did you choose to be straight?

Yes it can, it can defile a person's mind and question his mentality or whether in him, he wants to be gay or not. It can deeply affect a person, and make him think so much, he may eventually be gay.

 

I would suppose that these girls either pretended to be straight, or you didn't notice that they weren't straight, or they themselves didn't know. Teenage years are ones of great upheval and hormonal changes. Just because someone discovered that they were a lesbian after they left school does not in any way indicate that they were straight and have been somehow "corrupted".

They were straight all right, not till they attended a girl's school. Not only that, with hormones raging it is utimately common. In their schools, it is very common to see girl-girl relationships and them being intimate even in public. Just think, if that can happen to them, it can happen to other girls in their school, giving them a gender struggle or choice, especially when they are young.

 

And maybe this attitude is exactly the reason that they felt they couldn't confide in you in school?

I respect their choice, they are after all my friends. I feel appalled over the masses who have become like this. I do try to persuade them to revert, but it fails. I am still, close accquaintances with them. Furthermore, I know them when they were young but they changed dramatically as they stepped into such an age.

 

Again, I don't believe the "peer pressure" or the "media influence" theory (in fact, the media influence theory for anything gets my goat. There have been numerous studies, and they have all, without fail, shown that to be a load of nonsense.

 

As for it being okay for anyone to be gay...sure. Why not? There's nothing wrong with being gay, so why shouldn't people be free to be who they are?

 

Not accepting homosexuals doesn't make people not be homosexual, it just drives it underground, causes them misery, and leads to discrimination and people getting hurt. I cannot see a single one of those things as being a good thing.

Education here teaches us that peer pressure can make you do stupid things like shoplifting even if you were a person of virtue. Well, based on media here, people start taking up japanese/korean languages lessons because their pop idols speak that. They start having hairstyles based on anime of japan origin. They start dressing up like breakers because hip-hop is big here. They start skating because everyone skates and people who wear that clothes look cool or their friends do it. What is real is the smoking problem here, people smoke because their friends do it, it is often a friend offers them a cigarette before they are hooked. It is not a whole lot of goat. It is real. People take peer and media influence here very seriously.

 

Okay, would it make you think that my opinion was more informed if I told you that I was friends with Erik "The Lizardman" Sprague's wife? http://bmeworld.com/amago/ I don't get all my information from the TV.

Ultimately a person's choice does not affect everyone, but to me we aren't humans for nothing, not to have your parents painstakingly bring you up so you could be a lizard.

 

This is your opinion, and in my experience is completely wrong. It's rather closed-minded, in fact.

 

I wonder what you would make of me? I'm nowhere near as extreme as Erik or Tom, but I've got long, multi-coloured hair, 8 earrings in my left ear, a nose ring, and a labrette (middle of bottom lip) peircing. I also have two tattoos of my own design on my left arm, and have nearly decided on my 3rd.

 

At what point, I wonder, do you personally believe that normalcy ends?

Culture plays a part in this. It is not weird unless you ultimately decide to make a drastic change to your life and continue living like that. I may be narrow-minded, but I don't see any purpose in that. As for you, you have a job, you work, you think sensibly, you have a future most importantly. I have no reason saying you are a bad-ass punk because you have body art on you.

 

I'd also be very careful of presuming to know what other people wanted as children. You say that these people didn't have such dreams as children. Do you know this for a fact? Or are you really saying that you didn't have such dreams as a child, and so you presume that everyone else must be of the same mindset?

As a child, no child says I want to be a lizard or gay. I heard of cases however, on the confusion in kids especially boys who think they are girls. But the upbringing of a child, environment and influence affects his development. As for me, since young I have always read about the paranormal and was very interested in it until I discovered the Bible, it changed my life. When I was young, I never imagined myself to do anything like this.

 

Define what "morals" and "values" are teh correct ones, and which are also so fragile as to be undermined by someone having their tongue split.

 

No, I don't think it undermines anything, except maybe the irrational xenophobic prejudice of not accepting what is not considered "normal". Especially by people who, themselves, would not be considered "normal" by others. Who decides what is normal? Would you change your lifestyle if you were told it wasn't "normal"? Are non-permanant body-modifications, such as cutting or dying your hair, or having braces to straighten your teeth "normal"? Is dying your hair to a shade of brown "normal", but dying it green abnormal?

 

If you lived in India, it would be normal for you to have your nose peirced. If you were a memebr of certain African tribes, it would be normal for you to have your face permanantly scarred as you became an adult.

 

How do you define "normal"?

Morals and values are based on what is right and sensible in society. It is twisted if society accepts immoral concepts to be right or common and ignore it. It is just running away from the problem. I myself am told, am not normal, or my thinking that is. Just because I have deep thinking about the world, I am classified as weird. Or for the fact I do not fancy mainstream. Normalacy is not based on a person's exterior but on how he thinks. Do you call a murderer normal at all? I would say a mad man is more normal than a mass murderer.

 

And I would rather that people were free to be how they feel comfortable without criticism, as long as they didn't hurt anybody else doing so.

 

So, altering yourself to look like a lizrd is far, far more acceptable in my book than speeding in your car. For example.

Criticism and discrimination is wrong if it goes too far, but it is human nature. I would rather discourage or have a talk, if it fails, I can't stop them either. It is their choice and I can't do anything about it. Just my best wishes to them.

 

Or is it that she is attracted to such music because she is depressed for other reasons?

 

What you're saying here is the old censorship argument. It's alright for you to listen to Linkin Park, as they didn't influence you. It's all of those other people who are succeptible.

Firstly, it is her mindset. She goes to church religiously and knows wrong from right. But why does she indulge in such behaviours, I'm not sure. She has great friends, scores well in school. Secondly, it is the music that also plays a part.

 

I myself, used to like Linkin Park, I don't find their lyrics alternative just a bit 'trashy'. Anyway, I just got sick of hearing the same songs repeatedly. Sadly, the susceptible ones are many.

 

I'm enjoying talking to you, too. It's nice to converse with someone who doesn't get defensive or offended if I question their beliefs, rather takes it in the spirit in which it's intended.

Ah, there, finally we are done. I do hope you have time to spare to continue answering. I wish you all the best and God bless. I try to see things in a neutral way, and not to be offending in any way. Hope to hear from you again. :)

 

 

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I'm sorry to hear about your work predicament.

It's good work and I enjoy it a lot. I have no problem with it being hard work at times.

 

Therefore, it is up to you to believe me.

As I've said, I simply cannot take someone's word for something. I need a credible source.

 

I would say the people were more gullible back then, they didn't have proof for anything or modern science to back 'ghosts' and the 'supernatural' up, they just knew it was there.

The point is that the vast majority of people still believe in those things. And all that the advancement of science has done is allowed pseudo-scientists to muscle in on the whole thing. People make their entire livings based off conning people in this manner. People such as Ed and Lorrain Warren: http://www.warrens.net/ Still getting milage out of the thoroughly debunked Amityville story. The thing is, this has been thoroughly debunked, as have Ed and Lorraine Warren and their "scientific methods" time and again (like here: http://www.ghostresearch.org/articles/amityville.html) since the whole thing started, and there are still more people that believe that the Amityville case was a true, scientifically proven case of ghosts and demons inhabiting a house.

 

The advancement of science has done absolutely nothing to make people more skeptical in general terms.

 

Here's a nice link for people who are skeptics on the supernatural.

Yeah, I've been a big fan of SkepDic for ages.

 

The Beatles were rather hippy-like, like John Lennon, his wife Yoko Ono, and now his son Sean Lennon. Many people in the world today are unsuspectingly manipulated into spreading the New Age movement. If my memory serves me right, I seem to remember a small passage in the book about the Beatles, but it was rather minor. Yoga teachers, like the many here, used to be the non-believing citizen here but were crossed into the New Age after taking up yoga.

All of that completely doesn't answer my questions at all.

 

Do you think the Beatles were manipulated into facilitating the spread of certain "New Age" beliefs to the West, or do you believe tham to have been part of the conspiracy you mention?

 

But there is still crack and ice going around, although not as strong, but it proved to have the same effect, after all the Red Indians used it themselves.

I've not seen or heard of those being used for "spiritual" purposes.

 

Yes, law enforcement indeed has cut down the rates.

It's not the law that has seen the decline in LSD's poularity - it's that people aren't as into that kind of thing as they used to be. People aren't interested in "tripping" and exploring the mind - they're interested in speeding and dancing. Drugs these days are often seen as a means to enhance an experience, not as an experience in and of themselves.

 

Ah, but it is an irony yeah? Technology is supposed to help mankind, but yet it seems to create more problems.

I wouldn't call it particularly ironic, no. The average lifespan of a human being has more than doubled over the last century, for a start. It's easy to forget how much of the comfortable existance we have today is due to technology and science. We tend to take it for granted, but it's really not doing so badly.

 

I rather base on proven things like drugs and medicine which has a proven and definite way to heal.

The point is that certain "alternative medicines" are proven to work.

 

Yes it can, it can defile a person's mind and question his mentality or whether in him, he wants to be gay or not. It can deeply affect a person, and make him think so much, he may eventually be gay.

What is the "it" you're referring to here?

 

But, no, I still mantain that you're entirely wrong in saying that being gay is a choice. I ask again, if you believe that, then when did you choose not to be gay?

 

They were straight all right, not till they attended a girl's school. Not only that, with hormones raging it is utimately common. In their schools, it is very common to see girl-girl relationships and them being intimate even in public. Just think, if that can happen to them, it can happen to other girls in their school, giving them a gender struggle or choice, especially when they are young.

You've not showed any reasoning there as to why you think there was "influence" to be gay. You merely repeated what I said (which was a case against outside influence, let us not forget) and added a baseless supposition to the end.

 

I say again: just because someone discovered that they were a lesbian after they left school does not in any way indicate that they were straight and have been somehow "corrupted". Yet that is all the "evidence" you seem to be offering.

 

I do try to persuade them to revert, but it fails.

The only thing I'm surprised about here is that if you treat your friends this way that they continue to want to be your friends. You cannot "pursuade" someone to "revert", because it is not a choice. That's why you fail. It would be like trying to pursuade someone not to be black.

 

Furthermore, I know them when they were young but they changed dramatically as they stepped into such an age.

A person who changed dramatically during their teen years? Who ever would have thought it? Call Ripley's.

 

It is not a whole lot of goat. It is real. People take peer and media influence here very seriously.

What you're talking about is a very different kettle of fish. There is no such thing as the hypodermic effect. That, in itself, is something of a media-generated myth. Here is an overview of various media effects models. Pay particular attention to the "Uses and Gratifications" model.

 

Yes, people will copy hairstyles that they believe to be "cool", and people will emulate group behaviour (and do I really have to point out that the two are very different things, and are not relevent to each other?), but they will not be "influenced to be gay".

 

Ultimately a person's choice does not affect everyone, but to me we aren't humans for nothing, not to have your parents painstakingly bring you up so you could be a lizard.

Again, do you know what Erik and Meghan's parents think, or are you just assuming?

 

It is not weird unless you ultimately decide to make a drastic change to your life and continue living like that.

"A drastic change" can mean anything. If I suddenly decide to become a Fireman, or to move to Africa and become an Aid worker, that's a drastic change. Would that be "weird"? And would it being "weird" mean that it was bad?

 

I may be narrow-minded, but I don't see any purpose in that.

I don't see any purpose in people going to the Opera. But I don't think it's a bad thing, or should be stopped.

 

As for you, you have a job, you work, you think sensibly, you have a future most importantly. I have no reason saying you are a bad-ass punk because you have body art on you.

Ah, interesting. Again, it seems that you're basing your prejudices on misinformation and assumptions, then. Erik has a job, he works, he is a very intelligent and sensible man, he was a doctoral candidate and has a philosophy degree, and he knows full well that his future is continuing to do what he does, and that his choice of career can sustain him (and his wife) until he dies.

 

As for Tom Leppard, a job and working? He's in his 60s. He was a serving soldier for 28 years, and only started his mods after he retired. He is also very intelligent, well-spoken and well-read. As for his future? He's retired. This is his future. This is how he wants to live. You know how people express the wish to go off and live on a desert island somewhere? Well, that's what he's done, except it's not a desert island on which he lives. It's not substansively different from buying a retirement villa in Spain.

 

FWIW, he's a devout Catholic who prays for 3 hours a day. You could say that he's devoting his life to God in the same way that a Monk does.

 

So you have no reason to say that either of them are a "bad-ass punk" because they have body art on them.

 

This is the point. You cannot judge somoene because of what they look like.

 

As a child, no child says I want to be a lizard or gay.

Again, you say "no child". Can I assume that you've asked Erik what he wanted when he was a child? Or is it just assumptions and prejudice again?

 

As for being gay, no I don't think any child says "I want to be gay when I grow up". But I know plenty of children know that they're attracted to the same sex.

 

But the upbringing of a child, environment and influence affects his development.

To a certain degree. The penalty for being discovered to be a homosexual in Sudan is death. If they discover that you are gay, they will torture you to death. Where's the influence there? All the influence there is to not be gay. And yet, people still get stoned to death and lynched there because they are gay. Why? Because the only thing that is actually affected by this influence is whether you feel that you can be open and honest about who you are, not who you are itself.

 

Morals and values are based on what is right and sensible in society.

The question I asked was who decides what is right and sensible and what isn't.

 

It is twisted if society accepts immoral concepts to be right or common and ignore it.

This contradicts your previous sentence. You said that what society found sensible was what was moral. Now you're saying that it's wrong if society accepts the immorral.

 

And, again, the question is who decides what it "moral"? Why am I moral, and yet Erik is immorral?

 

I myself am told, am not normal, or my thinking that is. Just because I have deep thinking about the world, I am classified as weird. Or for the fact I do not fancy mainstream. Normalacy is not based on a person's exterior but on how he thinks

This is exactly my point. So why is it okay for you to be how you are, yet it's a bad thing for your friends to be how they are? Why should society be accepting of you, and yet not of them? Why are your moral judgements about Tom and Erik right, and other's moral judgements about you wrong? who gave you the moral high ground?

 

I would rather discourage or have a talk, if it fails, I can't stop them either.

But why would you try to discourage them? I ask again, what's wrong with being gay? What's wrong with tattooing yourself?

 

Firstly, it is her mindset.

Yes, excactly.

 

But why does she indulge in such behaviours, I'm not sure.

That's right, you don't know.

 

Secondly, it is the music that also plays a part.

Again, you're stating this as fact, yet you offer nothing other than your belief as proof. You are wrong, there are numerous studies that show that the hypodermic model is false. This kind of media effect simply does not happen. It is not true. It is, ironically enough, a myth generated by the media.

 

I myself, used to like Linkin Park, I don't find their lyrics alternative just a bit 'trashy'. Anyway, I just got sick of hearing the same songs repeatedly. Sadly, the susceptible ones are many.

Exactly as I said, you're alright, becausde you're strong. It's all of them others who aren't as strong as you who shouldn't be allowed to listen to them.

 

Do you have any idea how hypocritical that is, especially as you're basing your conclusions on no evidence whatsoever?

 

I'll reply to the other half in a while.

 

 

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