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Is time preordained? And other ideas


Assrian_Ghost
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Time is not preordained. If the future is preordained as is the popular belief, then it is obvious that our past was preordained as is our present. In that case, the so called prophecy that our descendants from the future will travel back by time to visit us is a sham. Because if time was preordained, their travelling to our time should be preordained as well. In that case, why arent they here? There are two possibilities that I see, though I may be wrong.

 

First is that, travelling back in time is too complicated for us to achieve. We will never master that ability even in refined states of our future. The other is that, because the future has not been 'written' or 'happened' yet, we have not met our descendants. You can look at it logically, travelling through time is not like a wormhole, we cannot possibly jump from eight o'clock today to seven forty five tomorrow in an instant. If I go by what I have learnt about Einstein's theory, we travel to the future, the faster we go, the more ahead we are of the average flow of time for us. So, to go further than a year or so, we need to be travelling mind-numbingly fast. So, time goes as we go, we do not 'jump' in a preordained future, the future happens taking the natural course of 'what has to happen, happens'. When we travel to the future, time is simply going faster for us than for anyone else. Our travelling is not preordained, but it will no doubt change the way the future will be brought about as per to the rule I mentioned. Furthermore, if time were preordained, It would mean that nothing is for real, the very fabric of the universe is surreal, the big bang singularity would also have all the laws of physics viable because we could be able to travel to it, it being preordained, but that is impossible. Because the singularity erases physics, any preordination(sic) cannot be possible.

 

I also find almost nothing written about the effects of time-speed on the universe. We have lots on black holes and stars, but what about galaxies? If I am right, galactic rims travel extremely fast. And the galactic nucleus must be very slow. Then our galaxy in a 4 dimensional universe IS a black hole, with the far reaches of future on the rim and the deep abyss of past in the core. It would be a warp in reality. Furthermore it would mean that travelling to the rim would get us to the future and travelling to the core would get us to the past.

 

To explain my idea, let us imagine three stages of a man's life, A is his childhood, B is when he goes to school and C is when he is an adult.

 

Now, if that man is preordained to go the past, he can go there. In the past C will see himself as A. Now, C suddenly goes insane and grabbing A, he kills A. Now, with A dead, he will never reach position B and hence he wont reach C. But C already exists, so it will be a chaotic eternal paradox in which he both exists as well as doesn't exist. This cannot be possible in this dimension of space time. So either a new dimension exists of which we cannot comprehend or the fact that time is preordained is false.

 

All of this was cooked up while I was eating dinner watching discovery. Maybe some of the info i relied upon is false and some facts i held true screwed up. I dont know if I am right or wrong. I just got a brainstorm and puked it here. Can anyone there with any academic knowledge of this stuff help me where I went wrong or whether I just got a new theory or broke one.

 

 

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Hi there,

 

Not bad first post, you would have to define by what you mean as predordained. Right now the only literature that might refer to the future as preordained is the bible, whereby God has preordained everything that will happen (apparently, is he mad).

 

Time cannot be proven to be or not to be preordained, although common sense tells me time is not preordained.

 

The paradox you refer to is one of many timetravelling paradoxes, and there are several solutions for them.

 

1. When C kills A he creates another parallel universe where he didnt kill A.

 

2. When you travel back in time you do not go back into the time of you universe but another. Therefore, C1 kills A2 from another Universe, and C2 in that universe will not become, but his A1 is safe in his universe.

 

3.C could not kill A no matter how much he tried an infinite number of things would stop him until he gave up.

 

The theory of quantum mechanics tells us that for every decision on a macroscopic level in this universe, there is another created where another outcome of that decision is reality. This can be applied to the very action of nuclear particles and electrons, even sub atomic particles. You end up with an infinite, translational dispersion of possible realities. Inmagine these possible realities arranged as a sphere, of near infinite radius, in other words a plane, if our reality is at the top, nearby it will be other similar but slightly different universes. On the bottom will be an almost alien universe compared to ours. If you travel back in time tom our universe thats fine, or another but if you try to travel to back o our universe it will be almost impossible to find the exact universe again without some sort of marker. Even then it would be like measuring 1cm or inch (whatever) then investigating your measurement with microscope and correcting it, then magnifying it again, correcting, and again and again (so on). You would come back to a very similar existence, probably one in that your time travel project was started, but it would be ever so slightly different.

 

The maths and theoretical physics of time travel is possble and is not possible depends on how you interpret these theories and paradoxes. But it is far too complex to comprehend, or to visualise within your head, I have tried an analogy above but it is simplified greatly. For reasons like this and the energetics of time travel I believe that yes a black hole is the only way to travel back in time, but not by going into it. This I will explain again later if you want.

 

Another thing consider, where are the genuine time travellers now?

 

What effect do you think a vessel travelling at faster then the speed of light with a relatively huge mass compared to a photon will have on a planet like ours, do you think they land gently? Questions like this convince you otherwise about the possibility of time travel.

 

Good Scientist

 

 

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Well if Many worlds theory is true then all branches of all possibility exist, when i think about this i get the image in my head of multiple film reels where YOU direct which scene fits where,kinda like an infinite configuration of photographs, you join them up to create your film, your movie.

 

However these photographs already exist, rather than the picture being taken beforehand and developed afterwards, there lies the problem; many worlds suggests no beginning and no end, and therefore no actual cause and effect.

 

You have free will because you can choose which pictures to have in your movie reel, however you have no freedom to actually take and develop a NEW picture all of your own doing.

 

So even though your movie has a beginning and an end and the entire joining of pictures is from cause and effect, the actual pictures came from nowhere.

 

 

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But there is no taking into account the mechanism of time travel, with would not create, Many world dimension, but a stable "actuality" in the present universe, so the it has to be taken at face value, that any possible temporal incusion into the past have been self corrected, to sustain the present, lets say, that a large rock falls on C before he goes insane A, so that the "actuality' of this causal connection is that A reaches B, and suppose C does kill A, then the "actuality" is that there will never be a B in this temporal Scenario, in this case all of the local b element, will be aware of the the absence of B, and the destruction, of A by C, but over time this singular event will be absorbed in the group world/time line encompassing (A, B, C) so at several positional stational depature point, the effect is abelian, to the universe, not to the elements of the universe, But the effects are additive to incusion from the future to the past, Like if B invents a vaccine, in B's future temporal stational point, that cures C of his insanity before he kills A, then this restore all of the b elements, to the group world/time line, so that this singular event again changes the "actuality" of the original "preordained" scenario, there is always an issue of consevation of mass, wouldn't you agree?, since C is the least order to succeed, in the temporal ordering, his appearance Past or Future, are still determined by the relationship of A to B and B to A. :)

 

 

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Ghost,

 

While much of your post is irrelevant in the overall scheme of things, There is one point you brought up that IS significant and may have a great deal of relevance as to how time travel can be achieved. You touched upon the speed aspect and traveling into the future. No paradoxes are evident since whatever past you had that could be affected is now long gone. For you, personally, the future would now be your present. No matter what "direction" you would be traveling (away from or toward Earth), your speed would determine how you would perceive time passing (as observer, of course). Since matter is limited to 99% of the speed of light, travel in normal space will always bring you into the future with no hope of return to the past. Now, assuming that the past or future of a distant star would be irrelevant, then the only relevant travel to past or future would be in our own neighborhood. It really is "our" past or future that we are interested in. Therefore, we must assume that if we are to be able to access other "times", it is only at the "local" level that we truly interested. No other point in space or time would hold any meaning for us except, perhaps, to study stellar or galactic evolution. It stands to reason then, that access to "time" (especially the past), must be achieved at the local level to have some meaning for us.

 

If we are to believe Maku Pichu's statements that other dimensions (or times) can only be accessed at the planck length (or within "superspace"), then the paradoxes of observing the past are non-existent. It is highly unlikely that we could affect anything on the quantum level that would change the future in any significant way. You would be hard-pressed to kill a bacterium--let alone your grandfather. The beauty of all this is that "space" and "superspace" are both available at the local level (and the non-local as well but that's another story). If I understand this at all, once superspace is accessed--it is, relatively speaking, no longer superspace from our point of view. It is now normal space and can be utilized to "speed up" back to the future.

 

Your "galactic analogy" is not quite correct, but it holds the seeds to the problems and the solutions. The real problem in all this is, of course, how to access superspace at the quantum level. This will take some very original thinking. I agree with another poster here. Very good first post.

 

 

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"Another thing consider, where are the genuine time travellers now?

 

What effect do you think a vessel travelling at faster then the speed of light with a relatively huge mass compared to a photon will have on a planet like ours, do you think they land gently? Questions like this convince you otherwise about the possibility of time travel."

 

It would have no affect at all. If the vessel did not incorporate a field that set it aside from the matter in the universe (and G-forces/friction, etc.) it would be ripped apart anyway. Such a field is likely to prevent "bad things" from happening to anything outside of the vessel as well. Is it possible that the field will leave a wake of some sort? Sure. Will it destroy Earth? I am to believe it wouldn't.

 

To the original poster:

 

- Are we aware enough, as a society, to even take notice if time travelers were wandering around us everyday?

 

- Isn't it likely that travelers would consider us primative because we are at a pre-time travel stage in our development?

 

- Isn't it likely that travelers will at least attempt to not change history? This could also bring up topic of superior technology used to mask their visits that could make it near-impossible for us to take notice.

 

- This is common -- what about all of the UFO sightings? More likely time travelers or aliens? Don't you think a time traveler would need a space ship of that sort to accomplish the feat? Consider this: How can you time travel on the surface of a planet when the planet rotates constantly and has an orbit around the sun? Wouldn't you end up in space anyway?

 

 

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