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Does time exist in the first place?


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Surely all we can say is that "things change".


Intelligent life comes along and notices the changes and wants to observe them, understand them, categorize them. It decides that things change in a certain amount of "time". It comes up with a scale - a way to measure different rates of change.... it comes up with units to measure with. It decides you cannot give the absolute location of anything unless you include "when". So it starts to think of time - once a measurement of change - as a dimension in its own right. And dimensions, as we all know, can be travelled through. "Look," the intelligent life thinks, "we are travelling forwards through time now, aren't we? Then maybe we can move backwards..... etc etc.


But stop. WHAT exactly - apart from the word 'time' - IS THERE that you are supposed to be able to travel through? Nothing. It's not there! It's all just playing with terminology.



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that's a very good question, I've asked that many times myself. It seems we share common views on time (or it not existing). No, in a sense, it doesn't exist, but yes, it does, because millions of people believe it does, and that is the basis of truth. A true thing is only true because the majority of people in a society believe it to be, like religion.


There's really no way to measure if time exists, we do not have the brain capacity to do so, yet, anyway.



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I heartily agree with you agreeing with me!


I don't agree that 'truth' is simply what a lot of people believe. I think you could replace the word 'true' in your post with 'accepted'


Unless..... you're referring to reality itself being shaped by our collective expectation.... now that's interesting.



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But what I'm saying is that it's 'change' that we actually measure... and you don't talk about travelling through 'change' do you? 'Time' is simply a term used in the process of measuring change. We've come to think of it as a 'thing', even as a dimension, to help us understand process, but 'time' doesn't, in itself, as a thing, exist.



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Here's something out of a "Rules of Chance and Laws of the Game" -- a book.


Not maybe entirely accurate, but here's the author's thought on it:


In the beginning there was nothing.


How long can you have nothing?




Well, you have just evoked a unit of measurement!


Call it forever, a yardstick, however one wants to look at it, it still just became a unit of measurement and time was just created!


(It had to come into existence, without time, nothing can be measured, and forces are all measurable, or we are living somehow else in this Universe.)



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Ok, so time doesn't exist. I would like to point out that space doesn't exist either. There is nothing as intangable as space.


I've often thought of 'time' (a time) as being equivilent to 'stop', wich in turn, can only be described as a point of location.


So; space= everywhere


time= onewhere


Dr. Einstein would agree, you need both time and space to come up with a definition of either. Billy Gram would agree, the greatest things are intangible.


I agree, "time does exist in the first place".


A fish is aware of everything EXCEPT water.



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In some ways i agrre with you. just because we labled it dosnt mean its there. Iv thought of there not not bieng an actuall "time flow" that sits around waiting to be traveresed. If there is, were is it. eseentially, were is time? something cant exist without a place to exist.



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<font size="1" color="#FF0000">LAST EDITED ON 10-Jan-02 AT 09:27AM (EDT)</font>


Hi Mac, first I would like to say that you are on the right track. I find you post to be one of simple logic, and I fell this is the best place to be when searching for the true nature of time.


I see no one has taken up the challenge of answering your question. Well this is understandable. You must be carefully when answering other people's questions, because often you must first evaluate your own thoughts on the matter and this could lead you to a new reality that conflicts with what you previously held to be true. For some people this is a good thing and for others well not so good.


I found myself in this position not to long ago while discussing cosmological theory with one of my college professors. As I was challenging his long held view of the nature of space he decided to through me a curve by asking me one simple question, which was "what about time". Well this stop me in my tracks. I had no quick response to this question since I had not planed on discussing time that day. This may appear unusual to some people that I would talk about space with out regard for time, however I have never been satisfied with Einstein's work on this matter. So I often thought about space and time in separate terms, although at the time I had not determined what dissatisfied me about a space-time continuum.


So their I was with only one choice I had to quickly evaluate my thoughts on this matter and produce an answer and be prepared to validate it. As luck would have it, I had recently reviewed Einstein's relativity and other physics data and quickly applied this to the question at hand. While the professor looked at me waiting for my answer, and what seemed like an eternity my brain finally produced the answer.


As I reviewed my answer in my mind, I realized this was a completely new concept of the nature of time. About this time I realized the professor was still waiting for my answer, so in a calm voice I tell him "time does not exist". Even as I am saying these word to the professor I am thinking can this be true, at no time in my life had I such a thought nor had I heard of an ideal that time did not exist. I like so many others just accepted that time exist, but in some unknown form. But the data in my mind could not be denied the true nature of time was that it simply did not exist.


As you might guess the professor was not happy with my answer he quickly reminded me that he read all the books and no one would say such a thing. I agreed and asured him that I was just as surprised by the answer as he was, but never the less it was correct.


The professor and I never finished our discussion as we ran out of time, but it was just as well for the concept that time did not exist was so new to me as well, I needed time to fully understand the data that I used to discover it. Fortunately I stand on the shoulders of great man who's data I depend on has stood the test of time and I simply have to explain how this data applies to the subject at hand.


It would be pointless for me to go into great detail on this matter at this time. The ability to understand and accept my work will depend greatly on ones on level of knowledge and understanding of the subject matter at hand. I say this not to diminish anyone, but to point out that an understanding of basic physics is needed. I also find that most people know just enough about time to realize that a time machine would be the most valuable machine ever built. With this much to gain if you shine the light of truth on them they will run from the light into the darkness in search of their fools gold. This can not be avoided.



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i agree a time machine would be the most valuable discoverey of all time. But, what, other than a few questions bieng answered, good could come from it? If you travel into the past,you can only observe, not interfere. The "laws of time" wont let you. Well thats one theorie anyway. I belive travel into the future is impossible, for it is always changing, but that would be one heck of an expirience:) .





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it just dawned on me! if we go back in time and cannot change anything, wouldnt that be the same for travelers from OUR future?! and if so than the future is not always in motion. Like you said this changes my perspective on past-future time theories. man this could easily drive us mad!





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IN my view time does not exist in the physical. Let me explain.


First off everything is happening NOW. The beings that are here from the future are here physically and non physically. the reason that they say they are from the future is because thay come from a higher point on the evolutionary scale and our future will be like their now when we evolve to that level. They will always be ahead of us but not linear.They exist in the now but their existence is our future. They must allow our now to take place otherwise they would be robbing us of our experience. Humans must be allowed to evolve and grow . We can only grow through experience. They can help us but they won't do it for us. You cannot go back to the past physically only by using your energy body. Everything is made up of energy and that is what it returns to. If you want to view the past you must use your energy body. You will be veiwing the energy of the past not the physical matter which does not exist in that form any more but has transferred to energy. You must learn out of body travel then you can leave this field. But believe me there are those that would try to stop you because they view that as their territory and do not like to share. but remember your experience is here in this now. If you could move yourself to the future physically you would be robbing yourself of this experience. When you travel out of the body you must always return unless you are dead in that case It depends on your development here where you will go next. So value this experience NOW in order to move up the evolutionary latter


You will receive a new body next time. have Joy and Fun lifes a blessing





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Have'nt had access to the computer these past few days (One of my sons has a college report due) and thought I'd pop over to this thread for a "Hi-Dee-Ho" & get a gist of your own beliefs about "Time Travel". And not a moment to soon..... Somewhere along the line, it appears that the "Time Navigation" thread "tanked".....


I'm fairly new with this whole computer/inter-net thing, but after getting involved in a few discussion boards (Most involving curiousity about the JFK Assassination), I've come away from it all in complete amazement as to how quickly discussions tend to degenerate into inflamitory & offensive remarks, statements and attacks. And it seems to have become a standard on the inter-net.


I guess I come from the old school of communication, with some level of mutual courtesy being a main rule.....


Anyway, read your own comments & your feeling that the physical body is in-capable of traversing time, whether from present to past or visa-versa, and, though I consider you to be quite the "Class Act", I adamantly disagree.


Being an avid fan of both World & American History, and in comparing of the two, it is nothing less then incredible as to the technological acievements of the "Good 'Ole USA" as opposed to the 5,000 years which preceeded this awesome place, among the youngest of all nations... I've absolutely no doubt in my mind that sometime in the next decade or two, you're going to open up your Daily Newspaper & see full page adds advertising


"Bring Back Your Dead Relatives & Friends...$19.95 per ($50.00 For Three)...!!!




Face it..... This Nation is about the screwiest one of which World History will ever come to know, what with the consistant squabbling and all (Yeah... Like that other thread...), but this guy'll never, and I do mean "Never", under-estimate it's potential.....


I don't have the answers, but the hints are out there. The only reason I had included that story about "Atom Recovery" over at the other thread was that I felt in contained one of those hints ("Scientific"). Unfortunately, the post was mis-understood & took on a life of it's own as it went off into some kind of wacked-out direction.....


Catch ya' later,


Leather Neck



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I will only read your post unless someone new comes on because I don't have the time for silliness. I think we can talk to each other like two adult. I agree that we have a mess down here. the problem is how to clean it up. I do agree we need new technologies. But what will we use them for. I think if man continues to be ruled by his dark side we will destroy ourselves before we can make anything that will help us live better lives.


Some of us are trying with help from unseen forces to understand our dark sides in order to stop anymore damage to ourselves and our planet. I don't think that time travel physically can solve the problem but energetically it can. Its just getting people to do the inner work that is so hard. I was a very sick person for a very long time. I only received help when I started asking questions and thinking that there could be another way. I was physically drained not knowing what to do. I took a chance on new age methods and it saved my marriage and my life. Past recall helped me heal wounds I didn't even know I had. No! I don't go around wearing crystals but I have seen healers who are very good at what they do. They keep a low profile and only help those who ask It's not their way to interfer without being asked to. time travel cannnot be given to people who have not mastered their dark side. It is far to dangerous only those who are masters of their own dark sides are given permission to use it. If there are those that have acquired it through force they are certainly being watched and will not get very far. You may be wondering how I know so much . I am a telepathic channeler. Those forces who watch, speak through me because I allow them to. I have been through much training in order to do this job. I have had to learn to be in control of myself not others . I am in a safe place and can use this computer to connect with those who want help. I would never go out in public and reveal what I am. There are things that you would be amazed at but they cannot be revealed at this time. Just watch the news and you can see that technology in the wrong hands is very dangerous indeed. Mankind is much loved but mankind must grow up. I like talking to you and will answer any questions you have. If you are afraid I undertand sometimes these things are to much for people to handle. The times ahead will not be easy for anyone on earth . Things will get worse before they get better. But help does exist, the hard thing is finding it and the next hard thing is accepting it.





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Let me get this straight. You left this forum 3 days ago because the TimeTravelActivist whooped your ass. Proved you to be, without a shadow of a doubt 'a hypocrite.'


Is it my fault I proved you are full of it Clara? Did you not want me to point that out?


What you claim now is that you're a human freedom fighter. Trying to imitate the TimeTravelActivists role.


However, your statements are clear. Your not wanting to help humanity. You want to help humanity become spiritual based, by:


Giving up ALL CONTROL!


Succumbing to YOUR NEW AGE GOD!




Give me a break Clara… You're so full of it!


Why not just tell it how you told it to us before. Why hide the truth from us now? Everybody knows what your real agenda is in posting anyways.


No matter where you post here Clara, the TimeTravelActivist will be 1 step behind you, to make sure he corrects the damage you make.







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This is one of your post I could make some sense out of.


Sounds like you've had allot of spiritual and psychic attack in your life. Sorry to hear that!


But Clara I know that you have turned to this new age spiritual crap and its helped you pull out of the rut you are in at present. and I guess if its right and working for you thats all that matters. We live and we learn and we move on. I am only 34 and I've been around the world. I've had the opportunity to learn allot about all cultures and religions and all walks of life and I always try to have an open mind.


I'm not condemning you in your beliefs but I would like to address your new age astral out of body exsperiences. You are taping into a field you really dont know much about. OBE Traveling. When you have these OBE's you can encounter all sorts of entities in this realm good and bad in doing so you can subject yourself to phychic attack. I've come to that conclusion by reading your post above.


Time Travelers have tremendous power over us and the weak minded. They can subconsciously put thoughts and feeling into our minds. They can do this from other dimensions while remaining invisible to our site and in this respect we have no free will. We think we do but in all actuality we really dont. We are constantly and subconsciously being influenced by unknown forces even while we sleep. These are the Time Travelers that me and TTA are trying to expose the truth to you. Whatever they may be physical human time travelers, aliens, or ghosts if they are in another realm other then my physical realm they are considered TIME TRAVELERS. Their main goal is to turn our life into a living hell where the worst hits us at an all time high untill we hit rock bottom so that we look for spiritual enlightenment. They than have us enslaved to the future.


You probably have no conception or true understanding of what I'm trying to convey here. But all said and done it might pass on to others waiting for truth.





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I believe the question was posted, does time exist in the first place?


Well in order to come to valiant Clara's rescue, I must say from expierence of my own knowlege.This is where time is not linneal, or periods of time are more or less defined by heiarchies.


Sorry for the run-on sentanced there Clara, however I must extrapolate with these refrence points my freinds.


In an episode of Gene Roddenberry's, Star Trek The Next Generations, concerning the Portal, there had been a landing party to a very old outpost, deep within an unknown point in the galixy.


The central sun had gone nova aeons ago and the only evidence that life had ever been there, was an electronic sentinal, who had guarded this one, last, outpost.


Since the passage of time is relative, empires can exist, and thussly be recorded as once having existed within the relative accounting in linneal recorded histories.This is referenced as how other socieites do record time.


The recording of time, via the recording of empires as they exist, in the order they are recorded, is one way of at least affording a recording of fowardly placed time.


However via the structure of time and space as we know it in general, does have the access points of both the known worm hole phenominon, which can occur in any size.


Furthermore there is the averice of the white hole, which acts in a similar crossed fashion as an intermedium between a roving tornado and fingers of static electricity.


White holes as said by Steven Hawlking, are thought to be a medium as to where the universal energy conservation equation, may be balanced throughout the entire universe?


This would be as white holes serve as rapid fire honey bees, so deposoiting globules of both energy and particles.This is said to be near and one large main-mass body, such a planetary body.


So placed as a gravity wand, by the over-abundance of gravimetric pull.


The process of black holes taking in both energy and matter, both into their singularities, as well as into the near corridor refered to as the event horizion, happens all of the time.


It is thought that larger black holes, act as engines of creation which impose both contigual central gravity, as well as multiphase quantum null spaced dynamics, to center cores of very large galixies.


So the definaition of time, as a moderaitor for galixy function, due to mass and flow dynmaics, can be said to be another recorder of the passage of time.


Time exist to us, princapaly because we observe time's passing as such.


Know futhermore, that time can flow or pass by at differnt rates, depending in what known said or postualited frequency that any supposed being exist within?


Time and its passage is real, as we as humans ourselves, do propose that we are also real.


So as I had eluded to the forgotten outpos where The Sentinel guards his postiion, where relief will never come, does give weight to the saying, "Time passes you by".


To my freinds.


I must say that I have had a starteling moment.


I have to ask you who have known me and post this question.


Why are we here?


Yes this is reotrically phrased in questionology.


However as the Sentinel had asked Reicker so very adeptly placing a well twirlled razor sharp lantz, hovering just inches from Reicker's ear and shoulder, as he had visited the outpost,.."What are you feeling now at this moment commander"?


Reicker's honest answer in the face of uncertanity was, fear.


He was very honest and I wish that I could be this honest in my prose to a greater galixy.


That other guy who had posted here had said that he was sorry.


I too after reading what he had said so eliquentley put, now realize the hurt and guilt that this man had carried inside of him.


This was knowing what the Atlantians had done, in order to keep power.


I am sorry.


No man should ever be the expiermentation fodder for another civilization, no matter how well off that society may be, nor how high and mighty they think that they are?!


The next question, if Earth based man should ever throw off this yoke of suspission and fear, is what's out there?


Are there possably realms of society so very mind staggeringly ancient, that we as humans can not possably imagine the true guage of their exact age?Wow what a thought hugh?


I have to laugh, when in A.C. Clarke's well written book, 2001 A Space Oddsey, Astronaut Bowman, after loosing an entire crew, finnaly raches the surface of the black monotlith.


Bowman finds to his horror, that the monolith is nowhere solid.


The last gasp that is recorded to anyone is,"Oh my God' it's full of stars"!


I know now.


I understand that no empire or realm, no matter how impresive that they may seem at first, has an overlord placed upon the magesty of the very grand and frightenly vast universe.


In my very small and menail way, I thank my creator, "whoever in many ranges that this may be?", for the very cherrished privilage of being able to gaze out and wonder if there is an unending door, somewhere in this univesrse.


This door says in exceedingly soft tones, as an posed invitation,"Psst' my very curious freind, please come a little closer?


And in the gentilest wispering voice, cast the proposal to ones ear...."There is a very grand secret, that I must share with you this day"?...That secret is



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About your suggestions that "Evil" forces function out there designed to hamper efforts with on-going technological pursuits and research concerning Time Travel, I've got my own belief about the matter..... Read on


Just finished both an interesting and enjoyable read over at a few web-sites, with special regard to David R. Francis, United States Ambassadore to Russia at the time of the Bolshevic Revolution and found it quite ironic, in light of America's own troubles in the here & now of year 2002, a statement made by Ambassadore Francis at the height of the revolt.


At risk of setting off some kinf of cyber-space riot, I've enclosed the fine man's statement, alongside two other statements of which I feel relevant.


No offense, anybody..... simply stating facts


Leather Neck


God Bless America






David R. Francis, United States ambassador in Russia, warned in a January 1918 dispatch to Washington: "The Bolshevik leaders here, most of whom are Jews and 90 percent of whom are returned exiles, care little for Russia or any other country but are internationalists and they are trying to start a worldwide social revolution."






The Netherlands' ambassador in Russia, Oudendyke, made much the same point a few months later: "Unless Bolshevism is nipped in the bud immediately, it is bound to spread in one form or another over Europe and the whole world as it is organized and worked by Jews who have no nationality, and whose one object is to destroy for their own ends the existing order of things."






The Jewish Plan for Genocide of USA Whites ISRAEL COHEN (1912)


"We must realize that our party's most powerful weapon is racial tensions. By propounding into the consciousness of the dark races that for centuries they have been oppressed by whites, we can mold them to the program of the Communist Party. In America we will aim for subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro minority against the whites, we will endeavor to instill in the whites a guilt complex for their exploitation of the Negros. We will aid the Negroes to rise in prominence in every walk of life, in the professions and in the world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the Negro will be able to intermarry with the whites and begin a process which will deliver America to our cause." Israel Cohen, A Racial Program for the Twentieth Century, 1912. Also in the Congressional Record, Vol. 103, p. 8559, June 7, 1957



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very well put. I did take that chance and decided to call out myself to see if anybody was out there the funny thing is they answered. At first they seemed like they were controlling me then I said no I don't choose to do that or say that and they said Wow! we have taught you to claim your power good for you dear sister. now go live this wonderfull life the universe has given you it is a gift. They are more like the teacher on Kung Fu. You can do what ever you want but you will be the one to suffer the consequences. And the biggest lesson is never to stand in the way of anothers free will unless your life is at stake then you have permission to defend yourself. because you are not choosing they are. that is the whole concept behind martial arts. Never look for a fight but if one comes along defend yourself , that is if you cannot walk away. the trick is don't call out to the universe for a savior , a Genie in a bottle or some kind of king call out to the oldest and wisest because they will have learned the many lessons that they may teach you if you just so happen to be listening. and don't give your power away to any man, woman, leader, god or alien. And that my dear friends is the secret they told me.





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Very well put Aunt Clara'


I'm proud that you are so adept at knowing a real on from a fake.


In other words, this this also meant that if one gives power and advice to someone, as they have fetters placed upon them, that in the longer run, once they are free, then they must bear consiquence?


The portal sentry as said by T-02 was a metaphysical representation.


Neither flesh, nor contrivance, however something of a nondetermined nature.


The twiriling blade was a test, a test to Riker to see how he would have faced an unknown.


So in the real tennet of how affairs lay, if one affords the ability to travel in time and accidents do happen as they always will and Time02 end upin Alpha Centuri, then he must give an accounting for himself, if stopped?


How did Thomas Dehn find out about quantum flux spears, through the in-jump quantum traveling shell?


I don't know and don't understand,"Oh Mommy Clara, my sweet' let me hide behind your dress and peer out at the world where it is safe"?!


There, that's better now I'm just like a real fellow, and have no composition of fear to my personage.


"However, if I need it, Clara's dress, her long flowing to the shoes 15th centry country dress, is right there for me to hide behind"!


If I came, or was invited to Clara's house, could we sit out in the courtyard and be served tea with English toast?


Would humming birds come to give littlefairies rides upon their backs, so making Spring bloom, for just one day, please!?


Would music come to bear.


She is of five feet in hight, to my three feet being a hobbit.:oops:



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