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i think i may be able to debunk john titor


ruthless
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ok, ive been reading posts,archived material,anything i can find really as i find this subject totally facsinating. i believe titor's "theory" is correct and i believed everything he said until i read this. this was in reference to what it felt like when traveling through time.

 

"The gravity field also traps a

 

small air pocket around the car that acts as your only O2 supply unless you

 

bring compressed air with you. This pocket will only last for a short

 

period and a carbon sensor tells us when it's too dangerous"

 

to me, this seems impossible, as the bubble has no input or output for air to escape or come in.

 

so that being said,the bubble would have to be soft to breath. i see this very strange,because,the bubble would have to contract and expand with your lungs. and im most sure that it would throw some calculation off, tho i am no physicist.

 

one more thing i would like to comment on is the incredibly long thread i read from chronohistorian.

 

he tells on himself with his sig. for him to not understand that a cake cannot exist on a plate and in your stomach at the same time tells me all i need to know.

 

i dont know if this has been talked about before, but i didnt see anything about it anywhere.

 

one last thing, as i've said before, im no physicist,but heres my theory:

 

time and math are forms of measurement made by man, they are used to understand the universe,but, i believe the universe is far too great to be measured.in other words, time is man made,therefore,how could we travel through it?

 

also i would like to know if this video excists,as i cant seem to find it.

 

any feedback would be truly appreciated, regardless if good or bad.

 

these are all just my thoughts, and i mean no harm by it,just very curious.

 

i love this site btw, a gold mine of info.

 

 

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>>"The gravity field also traps a small air pocket around the car that acts as your only O2 supply unless you bring compressed air with you. This pocket will only last for a short period and a carbon sensor tells us when it's too dangerous" to me, this seems impossible, as the bubble has no input or output for air to escape or come in.<<

 

I mentioned something very similar to Pamela a while ago. My question was:

 

-Since the time machine distorts space (to paraphrase, Titor said- you feel a tug towards the time machine up to 2Gs), shouldn't you be worried about a bottle of compressed o2 exploding from this distortion?

 

-As you exhale co2 from the o2 tank in the bubble, where does this air go? Shouldn't the bubble end up full of deadly co2?

 

-Furthermore, a car is not air tight- the car's air vents let in air. If the surrounding air heats up to 120 degrees, this heat should come in through the vents- in effect, Titor would slowly bake as he travelled time.

 

-If the tank of oxygen is your only air source and without it you'd die, shouldn't Titor have mentioned it more prominently? This is like astronauts taking air for granted- anyone see Apollo 13? Shouldn't he also have some sort of "oxygen mask"?

 

-And if so, since he sleeps through the time trip (since it takes 10 years per hour), shouldn't it be more like an Air Force jet mask than some dollar store mask... shouldn't he be worried about it falling off and killing him as he slept? Shouldn't he have mentioned this better or shouldn't it be seen in the photos of the inside of the car?

 

-How can you sleep comfortably in a 120 degree car?

 

Pamela said the back of the car vents X-rays which really doesn't answer the question. Now I asked Pamela only because she has more into on Titor, not because she is hiding anything. It seems this may be an unanswered question.

 

-If the bubble vents air as well, then it's not a bubble.

 

-An o2 scrubber or something like that would answer this question, but Titor never mentoned that.

 

I think Titor picked a car to copy "Back to the Future" but did not take into account all aspects of a time machine inside a car.

 

-If the car distorts from the time machine, couldn't the gas tank rupture?

 

-What about the car's engine- shouldn't parts if it break from this tension?

 

-Did Titor actually drive around in this car from 2038? What if you Carfaxed the VIN?

 

-How can you sell a car without a title (because it's from 2038)?

 

-How can someone else register a car without a title and with a duplicate VIN?

 

-There is a shotgun clearly visible in the back seat. Does Titor have a gun permit?

 

Shouldn't Titor be worried about getting pulled over and arrested for a firearm, an unregistered and unlicensed car and no driver's license?

 

I also brought up the "dirt that the bubble scoops up as you time travel". Titor clarified himself shortly after said it but it still makes no sense:

 

-Shouldn't the dirt clog up the underside of the car?

 

The answer Titor gave was (to paraphrase)- it's only an inch or two of dirt. Now if it's a bubble, it would have to be a good foot of Earth, but then again the bubble was not round- Titor said this a couple of times, partly to prevent the contradiction of this question... this whole issue is fishy.

 

I read about Titorian's time machine from his posts on TTF and that makes more sense, but that also presents its own unanswered questions.

 

 

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Ok i have to add something i have no idea if it been said to much info out there.

 

If the earth moves throu space and u time travel you better know were it going to be in the future other wise your going to need more air to start looking for it, every time you move forwards or backwards it will have moved again only because the earthquakes move the earth a little bit everytime it happens. That said you better be good at maths and ploting earth in space in any time.

 

If u move 20 years into the future were will the earth be in space?

 

If an earthquake happens were will the earth be after that?

 

After 50 earthquakes over 20 years were will the earth in space?

 

Is earth orbit stagnent or is it moving?

 

To me time travel is about mathamatics and space ploting.

 

Nice post got me to ask a few questions =)`

 

 

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thanks for your posts, very informative. heres a couple more thoughts.

 

if he could scoop up an inch of dirt underneath the car,so i wonder, does he end up and inch above, or does the inch of dirt simply "meld" with wherever he lands? consequently, if that were the case, wouldnt it be possible to eventully make a worldline disapeer? and i wonder if that would simply make some really hard dirt,or explode. grr! wheres a phycisist when ya need one! :D

 

oh, 1 more thing. i wonder why he didnt just suspend the vehicle an inch above the ground with wires or something. just a thought.

 

 

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Ruthless,

 

to me, this seems impossible, as the bubble has no input or output for air to escape or come in.

How about a submarine. Same general idea...a closed environment of a limited volume with one or more human beings breathing the atmosphere.

 

The person(s) in the enclosed atmosphere breathe in more atomic oxygen than they exhale. They do exhale CO2 and H2O but that oxygen is bound with carbon or hydrogen. You can breathe those gases but they won't prevent you from suffocating.

 

Don't get me wrong with this reply. Titor's story is fictional but he did get a few things somewhat correct.

 

 

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well to me, its hard to understand. take for instance a subwoofer in a sealed box. when you try to push it in,it does not move. also, i think submarines have an oxygen supply and an exhaust, but i could be incorrect :)and a submarine also has a much larger displacement, if that matters im unsure. with such a small displacement, it should be impossible to breathe imo,but,i probably am wrong. certainly wouldnt be the first time lol

 

 

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im still having trouble with your post darby.why does a space ship have to decompress?

 

this is my thinking behind it. the lower the displacement,the easier it is to compress or decompress. say for instance you were in a glass bubble with a port for an air hookup, if they compressed the air, it would get to a point where you couldnt keep the force from pushing into your lungs and popping them. create a vaccum and i imagine its nastier.

 

my experience with this is from sealed subwoofers. nothing more. so the rules may apply differently and i may not be comprehending something.

 

if i am incorrect i totally apologize.

 

 

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>>if he could scoop up an inch of dirt underneath the car,so i wonder, does he end up and inch above, or does the inch of dirt simply "meld" with wherever he lands?<<

 

That's the original problem- for it to be a bubble, the car would have to scoop up a lot more than an inch of dirt- more like a foot. Enough to where when he reappeared in the past, he would have to push it aside to open the door.

 

>>consequently, if that were the case, wouldnt it be possible to eventully make a worldline disapeer? and i wonder if that would simply make some really hard dirt,or explode.<<

 

According to John Titor logic, he can't do anything to make this world disappear- he's from another worldline.

 

>>wheres a phycisist when ya need one!<<

 

As Ren says, Darby is the #1 Titor debunker.

 

>>How about a submarine. Same general idea...a closed environment of a limited volume with one or more human beings breathing the atmosphere.<<

 

Then Titor would need an oxygen scrubber in the car. 10 years per hour... from 2038 to 1975 is over 60 years which is six hours of o2. Of course we must assume he refills his oxygen canister because:

 

2038-1975: 63 years

 

1975-2000 25 years

 

2000-1975 25 years

 

1975-2038 63 years

 

TOTAL: 176 years, which is 17.6 hours worth of oxygen he needs for the whole trip. How long do scuba tanks last?

 

 

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One thing that hasn't been brought up about time travelers, is that our bodies are products of positive time. We breath, our hearts beat, and we think and perceive in time that goes from the past to the future.

 

But the time traveler who is going backward in time, also has to be personally going forward in time to be conscious (see cause and effect and the laws of thermodynamics). How is that done? I don't know and I don't think any of those claiming to be time travelers do either.

 

In Titor's case (and you can see the pictures and diagrams at time travel portal.com)he has a mass great enough to distort a laser beam which is in a box setting comfortably on the passenger's seat of a Corvette! Beside, someone earlier processed that photo and showed the image of the passenger side window, right above the box, was not distorted in the least. The whole thing is science fiction and reminds me of one of Bob Lazar's stories.Now that I think of it, the Titor story is a little too much like "Back To The Future," which is probably the genesis of it. :)

 

 

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There's so many ways to debunk John Titor.

 

How about any "gravity field" powerful enough to distort time would crush the guy in the center of it? How about the movement of the Earth through space re: Titor's position? How about differences in ground elevation re: Titor's position? Etc., etc.

 

If you don't like the physics route, how about the fact that his predictions have proven false. How about the fact that there's exactly ZERO evidence of an "American civil war" going on? How about the fact that the term "American Federal Empire" is lifted straight out of right-wing militia propaganda? Or that the crux of his story comes from the old book "Alas, Babylon?"

 

John Titor was a hoaxer. A clever hoaxer in some ways, and one that made us think a lot about things like time travel and our society, but a hoaxer nonetheless.

 

 

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  • 7 months later...

i recently talked to a guy who claimed to have worked on a submarine. i did not bring it up, i just asked him what he did for a living. he told me that submarines do, in fact, decompress. and he also said it gets a little hard to breathe sometimes. i thought it would be worth mentioning.

 

another thing i find worth mentioning is, why did darby not know this and i did? that kinda scares me. also makes me wonder if it was deliberate. no offence, of course.

 

 

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Honestly there if the bubble doesn't work perfectly like a solid wall of presure than we are faced with many problems. First the field. SOmeone asked what would happen if someone came into contact with an active time distortion field as generated by his machine. Titor said they would be flatened and stretched into infini. Follow the air. Where is it going to go when it comes into contact with the field?

 

But maybe thier is a solution and the field does act like an impenatrable wall of presure... could be possible... The massive heat might generated by the field might stop the air from comeing into contact dierectly with the field. Who knows?

 

I think Stephen Hawking might know. In fact I think he did it with the help of people closest to him.

 

This brings us to two questions WHY? and who helped him?

 

The following is my theory based on very circumstantial evidence.

 

When I think of his genius and his profession I think it is unlikely that thier is a time travel website he has NOT visited. At 65 years of age he has spent the majority of his life imprisioned in ALS. So the internet must present one heck of a idealogical freedom. And I would not put it past his sense of humor to try and use what he knows to convince people online that he was a time traveler. I think he may of done so more than once. You know playing around at first refining the persona for personal entertainment. This is to say nothing about how many prominte physicists that were mentioned and how little the father of black hole theory was mentioned. A Pondering Hawking indeed.

 

He meets all the technical requirements to send the story online but not to build the box. The box and the laser photo requires someone who does not suffer ALS. Enter in his son. Tampa Florida resident. From the age range that would of read Alas," Babylon in school ", Nobody more trustworthy than a personal relation...

 

Then thier is Larry Cluck and his poem. At this point thier is no reason to prepetuate the Hoax unless A: thier is an agenda behind it (not money either) or B: he was the real deal.

 

After reading some of Larry Clucks other poetry I am leaning towards A.

 

 

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Something to consider.

 

Does megaflux know Larry Cluck?

 

Larry has cast a whole new spin on all this. Either Larry did hear of the titor story and named his poem after Titors words OR Larry was honest and named his poem in ignorance and Titor was the real deal.

 

This is a one and infinity shot. Poems go by many names but you wont find a russion poem names "A soldiers winter" The the cold of the american revolution no soldier titled a poem named "A soldiers winter" Now some have said to me oh it was just a lucky guess or its so easy it was bound to happen sooner ot later.... These are comfort words to the irrational skeptic. I am NOT irrational (no matter what you may of heard to the contrary) NO I am a rational open minded skeptic. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then By george I am will to chop off its head and eat roast duck..... but if I chop off the head and see gyros and speakers I am gonna call it a decoy not duck dinner.

 

With larry cluck what we all have is a perpetuation of the Titor mystery. So question why,.... after seven years Why!? Was titor real? Or was he a fraternal brother working on the aquarin age zietgiest? I do not know. What I do know is that the coincidence of the poem title and backround of said poet calls the matter to a head. Either John is the REAL DEAL or larry cluck is part of somethng well thought out and long planned.

 

 

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Here's Boomer's partial poem...

 

Posted by John Titor on 02-21-2001 08:48 PM

 

...snip out his reply to my questions...

 

RANDY:

 

.

 

((Do you remember any poetry or verse from after 2001 in your past?))

 

.

 

A Soldier's Winter

 

.

 

The day before it wasn't snowing.

 

The trees are strangers, leering, disapproving in the ash of winter

 

.

 

..my world, my life, my wandering path. I pray God's eyes may once again gaze upon me and remind me that I am still His child.

 

.

 

I only (think) I remember the first line but the last one I remember. It has quite a few more lines that I don't remember. It is rumored this was written first as a letter by a soldier. After he died it was added to and edited by others. In my opinion, it has become a symbol for the collective guilt my parents' generation feels for what became of the world.

Emphasis added.

 

Now here's Larry Cluck's poem:

 

A Soldier's Winter

 

Winter has a way of moving quickly and catching you unaware of the approaching season. A soldier's thought is only to remember how we have laughed a thousand times and sheds a thousand tears for no reason.

 

.

 

It seems like only yesterday that I was young and free and became a soldier like my dad many winters ago. Though countless seasons have passed me by and I don't remember them all, but I know I must have lived them because so many soldiers still call and say, 'Do you remember when'. I do have glimpses of how it was back then, with all my ambition and objectives... but, here it is the winter of my life and it has caught me like a mission with no perspectives.

 

.

 

How did I get here so fast? Where did the years go and where did all the soldiers go? Where did my youth go? I remember... seeing older NCO's and officers through the years and thinking that those soldiers were years away from me, and that winter was so far off, that I could not fathom it, or imagine how it would be...

 

.

 

But, here it is...I've lived through so many conflicts, so many operations, so many maneuvers, so many funerals. I've seen the happiness and the sadness that has come with each, I've seen accomplishments, I've tasted success, I've experienced failures, and through it all..... my buddies, my family was standing beside me. But winter has come so fast, I only have the memories of the years that have passed.

 

.

 

They say a soldiers day is never done, and when the last boot is shined, when the last order is signed, the last inspection is made, the last salute has fallen, we will hear the evening cannon fire, we will hear the bugle play, we will see old glory folded, and know winter is on its way.

 

.

 

Each day now of the coming season seems to be getting shorter and shorter.... sunrises and sunsets seem closer and closer together, winter is approaching much too fast.... all my skills, all my training, all my abilities as a solider can't stop it, all we can do is have memories of the past.

 

.

 

And so, now I enter into this season of my life.... unprepared for all the aches and pains that I feel, the loss of old friends, the loss of old soldiers who's winter caught them off guard, and the ability to perform the duties of a soldier are very hard.

 

.

 

But I do know, that though winter has come, and I'm not sure how long it will last...this is for sure, when it's over...its over

 

Yes, I have regrets... there are things I wish I hadn't done.... things I should have done... but indeed, there are many things I'm blissful to have done...its all in a lifetime of a soldier I once was.

 

.

 

So, if you're not in your winter yet...let me remind to you, that it will be here faster than you think. So, whatever you would like to accomplish in your life, do it quickly! Winter comes so fast... do what you can today, because you will never know if this could be your last!

 

.

 

God has made us no promise that we will see all the seasons of life again...so live for good today, and say all the things that you want to say, so your buddies and your loved ones, will remember what you say every day. 'Being a soldier is a gift. The way you live your life is your legacy to those who came after you. make the most of it.'

 

.

 

Live it well....Winter is on its way!

 

.

 

Larry Cluck

The only similarity is the title. Nothing of Boomer's poem is found in Larry Cluck's poem - not even the theme.

 

In fact there's nothing in the few lines that Boomer posted that even suggests what the intended theme of the poem is. It doesn't even mention soldering, war or any other social situation.

 

Larry's poem is a soldier's recollection of a life of honor, duty and courage at the end of his long life. It's a rememberance of friends and family. He says that being a soldier is a gift.

 

Is this a poem that, as Boomer phrased it, would " become a symbol for the collective guilt my parents' generation feels for what became of the world"?

 

If his poem is so important that it becomes such a symbol why would be only remember that last line, guess at the first line and can't remember any of the lines that state the theme of the poem?

 

 

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Enter the Skeptic with comfort words.

 

First off Titor said the poem got passed around and edited as it was passed around.

 

Second the subject matter is not nearly as important as the name and back round of said poet.

 

Either Cluck proves it or Cluck is in on it.

 

It is easier to accuratly predict an earthquake than it is to properly name a poem by title and back round of said poet 5 years from the time it will be written.

 

YOu think nothiing of it because the subject matter differs....Are you comfortable?

 

I really wanna Prove this point so lets begin. I'll name three poem titles and poet back rounds.

 

Lets see if any exist in 5 years.

 

A womans burden written by a housewife

 

My parents apathy written a rebel

 

We miss the winter by a scientist

 

 

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titorite,

 

I really wanna Prove this point so lets begin. I'll name three poem titles and poet back rounds.

 

Lets see if any exist in 5 years.

They can all exist in five minutes. I, along with anyone else who reads the post, know the challenge. All I have to do is write a line of prose for each and you have five poems. They might not be works of literary art, but they surely do exist.

 

The other possibilities for Cluck are:

 

Its a coincidence. The "autumn" and"winter" of life is a common theme in poetry.

 

Cluck read the title that Titor posted, liked the sound of it and used it as the title for a different poem.

 

In any case, of course the content matters. If one is using something that Titor wrote as a prediction of something then if that "something"pops up the totality of the circumstance should have more than a passing similarity. In the instant case there's nothing similar other than the title.

 

I don't expect to convince you but that's not the drill. The drill is to see if the community buys the proposition.

 

 

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If this was such a stellar piece of undeniable accuracy on Titor's part then there's no way in hell we would even be arguing about it.

 

Its a coincidence of title and that's all. And as Darby points out, even that is not particularly impressive because a seasonal element has long been a staple of poetry everywhere.

 

What's really astonishing is Titorite's continuing propensity for crow-barring the actual facts into a shape that allows this long-suffering hoax breathing space.

 

 

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I am not argueing titors vaildity here. I am saying that the poem is no coninceidence.

 

DArby you could title those poems yourself but first your gonna have to find a wife, a rebel, and a scientist. Titor didn't get one part right he got two parts right. To discount it is to ignore the chances agisnt it. Its a one and infinity shot. Also I asked Cluck about it. He never heard of Titor before I brought it to his attention...or so he claimed.

 

Like I said it proves that he is either a part of the hoax or the Titor was real.

 

 

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Like I said it proves that he is either a part of the hoax or [that] Titor was real...

or its a not too strange coincidence because, as has been pointed out twice, the seasons of the year is a very common theme in poetry.

 

As I said before, this isn't about me convincing you or you convincing me. It's about whether the Community is convinced.

 

Personally, I feel pretty secure about my analysis of the entirety of the saga. I've spent seven years working on it and I possess information that isn't generally available to others. In truth, whether or not people believe or don't believe isn't all that important to me. What's important to me is whether or not I believe the story. The bottom line is that its a good hit count maker here and elsewhere. For the JTF the only thing that's important is that it continues to have the potential for making money.

 

The real kicker in the saga is that people use the story to rail against "neo-cons" yet Boomer, the author, wrote the story from the perspective of a conservative who is cast into a world of neo-coms. A world of communal villages where "parasites" are cast out; a world where one must get written permission from the Village Fathers to move to another village.

 

"Alsa, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour thy judgment come."

 

Alas, Babylon!

 

;)

 

 

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