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September 2024


Lyndzee_Grummond
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In case you were wondering, Ducky, "time bomb" #1 has now been detonated. Now, I can forgive you if it takes a little while for you to see exactly what it was, and how it directly relates to the first question I asked (and requoted) that you did not answer. But I am sure others see it.

 

So now you only need to ask yourself: How many more time bombs are you willing to endure?

 

;)

 

RMT

 

 

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Re: Let's Review

 

Ray,

 

Your post raises some interesting ideas involving operational security, allies and paradoxes.

 

From the early posts on the thread we learned that s/he works out of the Pentagon and that the mission was one of gathering information about a foreign nation. The partner nations are Japan, UK, Germany and other EU nations. S/he's here to observe (though in one post s/he said that the missions are for observation only but in another s/he said beginning with the second mission it was to "interact" ?). DARPA apparently knows her location in the Arlington area because she said that the safe houses were set up and accessible to a limited number of DARPA personnel. Someone has to assure that the safe houses remain safe and admit only authorized personnel. Her presence at the safe house is not a secret. S/he said that s/he answers directly to the President.

 

Though the story seems to have varied somewhat from initially being about DoD and the Pentagon to being other than a military project let's play "Just 'spose".

 

Chain-of-Command

 

Though, in the story, Lyn is Co-Director of DARPA in 2024, Lyn isn't a Director today. DARPA is aware that s/he's here. Was the President informed? Did the President clear him/her to be on the Internet talking about this project and revealing the mission as being one of gathering information about another country? If not, what's to prevent National Authority from taking action against him/her today? Vague revelations from a government official about what would be viewed by other nations as espionage of some sort, a person whom they'd have to believe to be what s/he says s/he is because they granted access to the safe house (code word access...secret handshake...whatever), might raise some hackles at State not to mention DoD. Openly talking about what has to be a Top Secret program today, her personal views relative to her 2024 Administration's position on the matter being irrelevent, would also be frowned upon by DoD and DARPA of 2008.

 

Allies

 

In the story we have certain allies working on the project. The project apparently is in progress today. But the leaders of those allied governments are not the same leaders they forged the agreements that, in the story, s/he is working under. The current leaders of those countries might not like what they see in the posts as it involves their countries (Japan for instance seeing that they are religated to mission support without full access to the gadget). They could easily pull the plug on their involvement - especially given the vague notations about the mission of "gathering information". They might be a bit paranoid (countries tend to be that way) and assume the possibility that its their country that has been targeted.

 

Paradox

 

This story concerns a physical world of absolute determination - apparently even at the quantum level, which is darned weird. (In an early post s/he said that the "divergence" was zero even at the quantum level though one wonders how one measures zero divergence at the quantum level when quantum physics is statistical in nature. But we are playing "Just 'Spose", so it's OK.)

 

What happens if Lyn is taken into custody and not allowed to return? What happens if allies do get paranoid, frustrated or just annoyed and pull the plug or simply demand and are granted a different slice of the project pie? What happens, in fact, if Lyn gets hit by a truck, dies and doesn't return to 2024? If Lyn is taken into custody and DARPA also takes custody of the gadget and begins to use it who will invent the gadget? We'd already have one thus there would be not necessity for anyone n the future to invent it themselves.

 

There's no alternate reality according to the story. Thus we have the potential for a series of viscious paradoxes...paradoxes of inconsistent causality. And all of them can be traced (other than the truck v. Lyn scenario) to faulty operational security.

 

 

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Re: Let's Review

 

What happens if Lyn is taken into custody and not allowed to return?

Yet another paradox: How do we explain two Lyn's in 2008? Who's the mother and just how many times does she remember giving birth to Lyn? What happens when, in 2024, Lyn doesn't return and they use the remaining gadget to travel to her pre-mission brief, tell her of the problem they encountered and scrub the mission? Where did Lyn #2 in 2008 come from? What happens if instead of scrubbing the mission they alter it to a Rescue and Recovery mission with Lyn as the rescuer? Let's say it's a successful mission and Lyn rescues Lyn #2. How do we now explain two Lyn's in 2024 - and they don't share common memories? What if they get really creative and rescue Lyn #2 a dozen times?

 

And last, but certainly not least, if they travel back to the pre-mission briief with Gadget #2 how do they explain having three such gadgets - the two already present in 2024 plus a copy of Gadget #2 from a bit later in 2024? What if they get a very bright idea and take all three gadgets back to a few minutes before the pre-mission brief so they now have five time machines? Why build them if you can temporally Xerox infinite copies on demand?

 

 

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Re: Let's Review

 

Hi Darby,

 

Thanks for that follow-up. Curiouser and Curiouser! :)

 

(In an early post s/he said that the "divergence" was zero even at the quantum level though one wonders how one measures zero divergence at the quantum level when quantum physics is statistical in nature. But we are playing "Just 'Spose", so it's OK.)

Well, that was another "time bomb" I had placed. But to be fair, I did not pose it as a direct question to Ducky. However, I did "throw it out there" for others to consider and asked you not to do their homework for them. ;) But I think it had plenty of time to mature, so I am glad you finally pointed out the problem there. We should note that she never touched it.

 

Thus we have the potential for a series of viscious paradoxes...paradoxes of inconsistent causality. And all of them can be traced (other than the truck v. Lyn scenario) to faulty operational security.

Yes, indeed. Not only have we clearly determined that, using her own words about security of the technology, that OpSec must be employed for this entire technological area, but you have also highlighted many of the reasons that the general guidelines for OpSec are what they are, and why to change them or delete even one of them could cause serious problems with any classified operations and/or compromise sensitive information.

 

So really Ducky's claim that OpSec does not apply to her mission/technology just cannot stand. There is more than enough evidence that either she is lying and that OpSec is in full-force (which she has shown more than one violation for), or she is just not at all who she says she is.

 

RMT

 

 

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Re: Let's Review

 

...have chosen to travel to the year 2008 because of the similar situation of both of our times.... I look forward to an intruguing, albeit brief, interaction.

Lyn,

 

I have some questions for you...

 

1. what exactly do you mean by "brief" ?

 

............ any particular date when you will be leaving ?

 

2. Similar situation of both our times ?

 

............ wouldn't happen to be a "Exit Strategy" situation, would it ?

 

 

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The question still remains as to why DARPA et al aren't working on space missions. The reference to SR involves the Lorentz transformations, gravity notwithstanding (GR). The Lorentz transformation says explicitly that if you have a time machine you have a space machine. Why didn't anyone figure that out instantly? It's not as if it hasn't been in the literature of SR for a very long time.

DARPA simply isn't involved in space missions. Why would it be when there is already an international coalition dedicated to space travel and exploration? Although you may think that the time travel project could be directly applied to space travel due to a theory or two, it's not exactly that easy.

 

And why does the project find travel to the future difficult if the gadget has the ability to travel to the relative future, 2024, from 2008?

Basically, the technology involves keeping a field open for a certain period of time after the initial jump during which the traveler is able to return. As of now, the amount of time we can keep it open limited to a relatively short period of time (that being the reason my time here is limited as well). In time travel to the future, the simple passage of time itself would prompt the field to expire right after the jump rather than stay open and allow for return.

 

 

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

L,

 

So you are telling us that these posts are here now, but 'disappear' until 2024 when your team see them 'appear from nowhere' on a server. Surely the fact that you have written the posts now means they exist now, tomorrow, next week, next year, and in 2024?

 

M_T

 

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In reply to:

 

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My_Time,

 

Yes, this is what I have just stated. They are able to read everything I am writing post by post.

 

L. Grummond

 

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Trying to keep this fairly simple, Please explain what happens to the posts between now and 2024 . The fact is that this thread exists in 2008, it will exist (barring the end of the world described elsewhere on this site (HDR and friends!!))every year up to 2024 and beyond. So, how can you have not seen the thread before you left 2024???

My_Time,

 

I think you may have misunderstood what I was referring to when I said "yes, this is what I have just stated." What I was referring to was your statement about "Surely the fact that you have written the posts now means they exist now, tomorrow, next week, next year, and in 2024." The simple answer to why I could not see this thread before I left in 2024 is that there had been no travel to 2008 at the time and therefore no posts.

 

These posts suggest that our history is your history and our future is also your history. Is this true?

Yes. I have stated this before.

 

L. Grummond

 

 

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Lyndzee,I have some questions for you:

 

-8 Bilions in 2024?? Wow, that's a lot of people! You are growing faster than expected by the UN. Isn't overpopulation a big topic in your time? How are you going to deal with it?

 

-What can you tell us about the ITER? Is it finished? Any news about nuclear fusion?

 

-What is the main video storage format in 2024? In 2008 we have the newest Blu-ray Discs, is the BD still in the stores? Additionally, they are now working in a new format called Holographic Versatile Disc (HVD), will it be the replacement of the BDs?

 

-How is the home video industry in 2024? In other words, what do you do when you want to watch a movie at home? (I mean, apart from the TV channels)

 

-Do you have physical videoclubs in 2024 yet?

 

-Do you have physical bookstores yet in 2024? If so, Has printing on demand at the point of sale became the usual form of purchasing a book?

 

-What about the old dream of "flying cars"? I know you have already answered a couple of posters with a laconic "No flying cars", but came on Lyndzee, even in 2008 there are a number of companies working in developing it, so please, make my day and tell us good news about it. Any prototype in use? Not even for the rich people or for the police or flying ambulances? Whatever additional information will be appreciated.

 

-One more question about Spain, do you remember if the basque terrorist organization ETA is still active?

 

Thanks in advance!

No, overpopulation is not really a problem.

 

ITER has not been completed as of yet. Construction on the project was halted a number of times. I believe it should be completed within a year or two.

 

Video storage is mainly on DVD and Blu-Ray. Because most consumers do not really see a major difference between the two, it has taken quite a while for Blu-Ray to catch on. Only now (after the price for the Blu-Ray DVDs and Blu-Ray players has dropped) has Blu-Ray began to catch up with DVD. I would say that the market is still primarily DVD though. A large number of people also use set-top boxes where they can either store purchased movies or stream rented movies from. (Looks like I just asnwered your next question!)

 

I am not sure what you are referring to regarding "physical videoclubs"...can you elaborate?

 

Of course we have physical bookstores! Books are as popular as ever! I don't think the way to purchase a book has changed at all in decades!

 

Sorry, no flying cars. I'm sure a few "hover vehicles" have been developed and are sporatically in use somewhere, but I don't see a time in the near future where flying cars would actually work in society.

 

Yes, although small, ETA is still in existence.

 

L. Grummond

 

 

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RainManTime,

 

Even after I directly answer your questions, you continue to try to make an arguement out of them. You say "DARPA is all about military projects!" - I say "That is not the case in 2024." - You say "But, DARPA is all about military projects!" - You say "DARPA doesn't have Co-Directors!" - I say "DARPA does now have Co-Directors, a position which provides me the ability to work with ITI through DARPA." - You say "But, DARPA doesn't have Co-Directors!" What more can I say to you? You are quite stubborn and apparently think that as time passes everything remains the same and things don't change?? Even after I tell you that part of your arguement (while it may have been valid if we were discussing DARPA in 2008 terms) is no longer true, you continue to push it! That is what all of your previous replies have been. Anyone in this forum can find out for themselves that DARPA has undergone a number of changes in its priorities during the last few decades and DARPA has simply gone through another transition between 2008 and 2024 (specifically in 2015).

 

I believe that this back and forth between you and I (and in some cases Darby) is wasting my time and the time of people in this forum. I would much rather focus on answering questions and having a conversation than argue. If you believe me to be a hoax, that is fine, but I will no longer continue this drawn out back and forth with you. I have already directly answered your arguements on OpSec, InfoSec, overall DARPA security guidelines, etc. etc. etc. but you simply ignore them and continue your same arguement. I don't know what else to tell you except that you will apparently have to be one of the people in this forum who will have to await the events and changes I have mentioned here before you realize you are wrong and I am right. I will leave it at that.

 

So I repeat: If you think I am a hoax, that is fine with me, but do not clutter this thread with arguements and accusations and waste the little time I have hear to speak with others. As time passes you will see events and changes I have previously mentioned come to pass (NASA, the ITI, the future Presidential Elections, the Olympics, etc. etc.) and will then see that I am not a hoax. And if you do make it to 2024, which I'm sure you will, then perhaps we shall speak again.

 

L. Grummond

 

 

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Re: Let's Review

 

Darby,

 

No you and RMT have gone so far as to start a conversation in paradoxes as an attempt to discredit me?? You are just grabbing at anything you can aren't you? Paradoxes are basic time travel conversation! I can name a few myself! Anyway, I simply wanted to refer you to my last reply to RMT as it may apply to you as well.

 

L. Grummond

 

 

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Re: Let's Review

 

Lyn,

 

I have some questions for you...

 

1. what exactly do you mean by "brief" ?

 

............ any particular date when you will be leaving ?

 

2. Similar situation of both our times ?

 

............ wouldn't happen to be a "Exit Strategy" situation, would it ?

KerrTexas,

 

By brief I was referring to the relatively short period of time I will be here (60 days from my arrival).

 

By similar situation I was referring to the Election.

 

L. Grummond

 

 

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I think you may have misunderstood what I was referring to when I said "yes, this is what I have just stated." What I was referring to was your statement about "Surely the fact that you have written the posts now means they exist now, tomorrow, next week, next year, and in 2024." The simple answer to why I could not see this thread before I left in 2024 is that there had been no travel to 2008 at the time and therefore no posts.

Errrr, if as you state there is 0 divergence then your posts should exist in 2024 before you left because they exist now, there was a time traveller posting in 2008, people in 2023 knew that so why didn't you in 2024. But then you didn't answer the question Please explain what happens to the posts between now and 2024

 

If the posts were not available before you travelled then there must be divergence... something is different. Therefore every bit of information you have given and every effect you have had will cause more and more divergence. So, you will return to a world very different than the one you left... Unless of course your story is just that... a story.

 

 

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Bottom Line: You are NOT answering my questions...even after I re-quoted them as you asked (surprise! surprise!).

 

You say "DARPA is all about military projects!"

Lie. Prove it. Show me precisely where I said that (instead of manufacturing a statement that claims I said that).

 

You say "DARPA doesn't have Co-Directors!" - I say "DARPA does now have Co-Directors, a position which provides me the ability to work with ITI through DARPA."

And again you DUCK and COVER! I will now spell it out as a very specific question, which anyone from DOD should know the answer to:

 

Question: Do you know why nowhere in the DoD are there management titles with the descriptor "co-" attached to them? Do you realize the impact to such a title on Responsibility, Accountability, and Authority? (Another common military theme)

 

You are quite stubborn and apparently think that as time passes everything remains the same and things don't change?? Even after I tell you that part of your arguement (while it may have been valid if we were discussing DARPA in 2008 terms) is no longer true, you continue to push it!

Because all you provide are your words, and absolutely NO substantiating evidence for even why stupid titles like "co-director" would ever be used in the DoD, given it clearly dilutes lines of accountability (one element of RAA).

 

I believe that this back and forth between you and I (and in some cases Darby) is wasting my time and the time of people in this forum.

Another pronouncement of truth by an (alleged) Guvmint Agent? It is a fact that I know AT LEAST 3 other people engaged in this thread who would claim that this is NOT a waste of their time. You see, not everyone is willing to blindly accept what you say. Some people in this world push, prod, and look for validation of claims.

 

I have already directly answered your arguements on OpSec, InfoSec, overall DARPA security guidelines, etc. etc. etc. but you simply ignore them and continue your same arguement.

I ignore them not only because they are patently incorrect, but I even show how your answers are incoherent with respect to your own words! I have exposed you as a two-faced liar. You just don't want to admit it.

 

I don't know what else to tell you except that you will apparently have to be one of the people in this forum who will have to await the events and changes I have mentioned here before you realize you are wrong and I am right. I will leave it at that.

Even though I do not like Obama, I am almost looking forward to an Obama victory just to be able to pin yet another aspect of your hoax on you.

 

So I repeat: If you think I am a hoax, that is fine with me, but do not clutter this thread with arguements and accusations and waste the little time I have hear to speak with others.

I would ask you again to stop making edicts and demands as if you are an arbitor of free speech. Moreover, all you have to do is IGNORE me and my posts. It is that simple.

 

Welcome to America and welcome to free speech.

 

RMT

 

 

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Just a post.

 

It just does not happen that way.

 

But on a lighter note, Ashley in the neighborhood who is 4 or 5 years old is going to call me Alburt, and that is the end of that.

 

So those type are looking, learning, and asking questions in a sense while starting to go to school.

 

What is going on with the markets is what happens with a free capitalistic society. The government interferring with the financial rescue will change that. This Country is running on a type of punishment type of system in a sense while denying what some of these people are doing - at least to me.

 

It just does not happen that way. Nice try, but it just won't work that way. As I looked at the News late last night (World News Now) it is clear that people are just talking and the brain is not registering exactly how they really do look when on the TV - digital or not.

 

God owns this Universe and this Planet.

 

Goodday!

 

 

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I believe that this back and forth between you and I (and in some cases Darby) is wasting my time and the time of people in this forum. I would much rather focus on answering questions and having a conversation than argue.

L

 

Who's argueing??? They are all questions, some of which you answer and some of which you get a bit vague about... but, they are all just questions. I can see that RMT gets a bit stressed, but I suspect this is frustration because while you answer some parts of his questions you ignore others and to be fair, to say 'well that is just the way it is' is a bit weak really. Could you possibly explain why there was a need to create the'co-director' post? What was wrong with DARPA to require such a significant change?

 

You should know that there are many types of people posting here, all of them deserve to be answered as they are all members who have taken the time to listen to you. I think you should remember that before assuming anyone is wasting anyones time. To that end Lyndzee, I hope you are not wasting our time.

 

 

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And what is going on in this world is only a small part of the talk on the Internet.

 

http://www.landsbanki.is/english/

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azotRtS9KH8M&refer=home

 

Well, I am not necessarily negative, but this world will be.

 

After hearing the news last night with the Lehman Bros. CEO talking to Congress -- it is probably certain that California has some goings on in that State also, let alone Iceland.

 

The point - it is now $850 billion according to some, but I really do not have the time to keep checking out this changing redundant behavior out of some people who think that they are smart there sitting in Congress of this USA.

 

It is just raining here, not a snowfall avalanche yet, but that may just occur with what is going on in this Country, let alone this Planet with the finances. It should be the end of easy credit and ridiculous spending sprees. If the financial rescue continues, Christmas may take on a new meaning and so will the new year. For some people, 2009 may begin a sort of Hell year with the finances played upon by people that in my opinon have no idea of what they are doing like passing the financial rescue plan, only what they are losing in the market place right now.

 

Well, time to pick myself up by the bootstraps and put in the background of the brain that the opinion is that nothing good is really going on at this time for some time in the future.

 

Oh, Russia is building new missiles to counteract the SDI, and that was also on the News.

 

 

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DARPA simply isn't involved in space missions. Why would it be when there is already an international coalition dedicated to space travel and exploration? Although you may think that the time travel project could be directly applied to space travel due to a theory or two, it's not exactly that easy.

I didn't suppose that any of this was easy. We currently have no solution to GR that indicates that time travel in this universe is actually possible, with the exception of relativistic time travel to the future. We have no theory that indicates on the engineering level, let alone the physics level, just how to hit a specified target area of spacetime even if TT is possible. We don't have a theory that says that wormholes or exotic matter actually exist, especially in a stable form, in this universe. We don't have a theory that indicates that time travel via a wormhole (lined of course with exotic matter) with a mouth diameter less than several thousand kilometers can be safely traversed. We have no idea how to harness the energy of entire stars to fuel the reactions necessary to accomplish time travel. Current theory indicates that if any of this is actually possible we're centuries if not thousands of years away from having the ability to accomplish time travel. And within the context of your story you aren't coming from a distant future; Lyn #1 is alive today and Lyn #2 is coming from just a few years into the future. There's nothing in the literature than indicates that we're even close to the above referenced theories - each a building block that would have to be tackled in a specific order so that the next hurdle could be overcome. In your story they are apparently knocked off one at a time, peer reviewed, published, tested, verified and then developed into their full applied physics and applied engineering forms in the next few years. In so doing, exotic matter is not only discovered, we simultaneously discover how to mass produce, confine, contain and manupulate it in sufficient quantity so that it it can be applied to the project - even though all of humanity hasn't been able to produce in a controlled environment even a microgram of anti-matter in a century of particle physics research.

 

It's not at all easy.

 

But the full general Lorentz transformation - the one that includes all of the rotations and boosts that you don't find in pop-sci literature on SR - very clearly demonstrates that if (and it's a big if) you can actually construct a time machine it can be used directly as a space travel gadget just as easily as it can be used as a time travel gadget...assuming that you've worked out the mathematical, physical and engineering aspects of spacetime navigation.

 

Within the context of your story it's not really an assumption, however. The context of your story indicates that you have worked out those details because you have both managed to time travel and hit a specific set of targets accurately. Because that's true in your story it is also true that you would have no less of a problem hitting Mars with your gadget than hitting 2008 with your gadget. As I previously said, the time interval between 2008 and 2024 is the same as a space interval of 16 light years. The Earth-Mars space interval is only, on average, < 200 light seconds distant.

 

If you can't accept the premise as coming from me or Dr. Brown I invite you to go back and hit the books for a minute. Take a look at the full Lorentz transformation in matrix notation. That form includes all of the boosts and rotations. It's right there, clear as a bell.

 

BTW: As indicated above, we aren't talking about rotation here in the sense of angular momentum, spinning, etc. The reference to rotations is part of the lexicon of LT and SR.

 

 

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Thank-you for your reply.

 

I entered into this discussion a bit late, having thought that it would not have survived this long.

 

Up front, I can say with absolute certainty that you are NOT from 2024.

 

Frankly, the only reason why you have a friend in Pamela, is because she desires to be the one and only confidant of any possible time traveler, or somehow associated with those who do attempt to pull off a good haox.

 

God help her ( or us ) if one does show up and she isn't somehow involved, or not provided with an opportunity to slam RainmanTime.

 

There are many dynamics behind your posts that expose you for who and what you are...which is NOT as a traveler from the future, however, it seems that these dynamics have gone un-noticed by others, and the farse continues.

 

The simple answer to why I could not see this thread before I left in 2024 is that there had been no travel to 2008 at the time and therefore no posts.

The simple answer as to why you could not see this thread before you left in 2024 is that you are NOT from 2024.

 

And, I might add, that IF you were a graduate of MIT, then you would scare the hell out of the staff, with the idea that the future students of their establishment would fail so terribly with the use and composition of the english language.

 

Having read letters and papers from other MIT grads, you seem to have missed some of the classes that your colleagues attended, since your writing skills ( and thinking skills )are well below that of even a community college level.

 

Intriguing as it may be, I , myself was looking forward reading the "intruguing, albeit brief, interaction" within this thread.

 

It is good to know that there is a time limit in place, although a shorter time frame would have been preferable.

 

One concept that you may want to think about, is that when you go to posting in a public forum, you never know who you will run across. You never can be sure as to what resources they might have available to determine fact from fiction.

 

Note to the moderator's of this site: Perhaps this thread would be best relegated to the fan fiction section, along with the the HDRkid thread.

 

 

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Market down again, not that it has really anything to do with me. I suppose some people will feel it though.

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/Quotes/indu

 

Well, off to some other discussion about whatever it is that someone is maybe or maybe not bringing up.

 

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/sidmeierscivilizationivcolonization/index.html

 

Found that for a cheap price, well cheaper than usually.

 

And you may be trying to help there Lyndzee, but this world may be beyond help without some real hard thinking instead of what seems to be going on with the News at this time.

 

And Ashley will call me Alburt and that will be that. Okay, while smiling!

 

 

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Re: Let's Review

 

No you and RMT have gone so far as to start a conversation in paradoxes as an attempt to discredit me?? You are just grabbing at anything you can aren't you? Paradoxes are basic time travel conversation! I can name a few myself! Anyway, I simply wanted to refer you to my last reply to RMT as it may apply to you as well.

Absolutely not. The context of your story indicates the aforementioned paradoxical outcomes. Surely this was a major topic of concern and conversation in the R&D as well as the operational phases of the project.

 

Rather than arguing with me, a point that you've made with Ray, why don't you just address the issue of the paradoxes implied by your view of the physical reality involved in your story? Is there a valid reason for anyone not to assume that you can clone the time machines at will by simply traveling back a short interval to a time where the gadgets already exist? If not, why?

 

This scenario involved a viscious paradox - one that involves not simply effect preceeding cause but causal inconsistency, i.e. a machine (mass-energy) that seems to create itself out of nothingness. It is a total failure of causality. Yet it is consistent with your story.

 

Please stay on topic and address this. It is a primary subject of time travel and is clearly implied by your story.

 

 

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