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Disbelief caused time travellers go away?


deaftime
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You are referring to time travel portal.org? Not time travel portal.com?

I don't know if there actually is a time travel portal.org , but time travel portal.com was the site HDRkid was referring to. I had a blog there "Why the universe is an illusion," that had gotten over 21,000 visits. But it also collected several hundred spammy comments. People seemed to stop posting, and the domain name was not renewed,went up for sale, and was bought for a few hundred bucks, or whatever, by advertisers who made it what it is today. Same name, but nothing to do with time travel. :D

 

 

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In the abstract at least mention the objective reasoning behind why SR/GR is wrong.

I never meant to say that relativity is wrong. I believe very much in the validity of modern science. What I meant is that there are things not yet predicted by relativity or quantum mechanics which are to be covered by a more broad and encompassing theory. When such theory is developed, it will predict new things and reduce to the present theories under certain conditions. I don't think TTI would be the place to post such a theory though. :)

 

 

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@kennethmd:

 

I don't agree with that. Your very arrival in the past is already a change from the past you know.

 

You either can travel back in time and then do anything you are physically cabable of, since the laws of physics still apply.

 

Or you can't time travel at all. But you can't time travel and then only be able to do this but not that.

 

Because as long as it's physically possible and you've decided to do that (and if we take away every bad luck you might probably have), then what should prevent you from doing that?

 

Who says: Oh, NOW he's going to change a major event, that's not allowed, but oh, here he just buys an ice cream, that's ok.

 

The universe and the laws of physics don't care. If you were successful in travellking back in time, then you can do EVERYTHING you want.

 

And while your reason "What God had set forth to happen, will happen" might be a reason why he can't change major events, it's not really useful since you can put it behind everything without using a real reason at all.

 

What's more, you first have to prove that god exists in order for that to be a valid reason.

 

Yeah, I can't disprove the existence of god either, but that's not important.

 

You have to prove something exists, not the other way around.

 

Or else we can start talking about fairies, vampires, leprechauns... or the holy spaghetti monster.

 

 

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True. You can't change major events, by traveling back in time.

No..this is one of the biggest myths of all about time travel. The idea that the time traveller just pops back in time, makes a few teeny little changes.....and then leaves without leaving any 'major changes'.

 

It is nonsense.

 

In reality, the TINIEST little change can have world changing effects. Imagine that you travelled back in time to 1889...and killed a single sperm cell. The sperm cell destined to ultimately become Adolf Hitler. You've made a tiny change......yet now there is all of a sudden no WW2 and 60 million lives are now not prematurely ended. The change in history would likely mean that you probably would not even be born. The global power map would be totally different...etc...etc......all from just one tiny change.

 

 

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It is presumptuous on our part to determine what 'any' time traveler would or would not do, especially considering the fact that as far as we know, we haven't run across one, yet.

 

Who here could really establish the intention's of any particular time traveler ? Maybe there ARE "evil" time travelers who intend to cause chaos and anarchy, and those who engage in the opposite.

 

When it comes down to the bottom-line, we have no say-so regarding any time traveler's behaviour. For all we know, Hitler ( as an example ) was meant to be; IF it wasn't actually "that" man, the early death of Adolf, may have laid the foundation for someone else to accomplish the same as he.

 

For all we know, maybe in some time-line's, Hitler was far worse. That some time traveler didn't influence Hitler with becoming Mad as a Hatter, we couldn't say with 100 percent conviction.

 

BTW: HDRKid...your statement above about "those" people that run this place NOT believing in time travel is not entirely accurate. I believe in time travel, just don't believe there has been one that has come forward here, yet. Just because someone says they believe in something, does not mean that it is appropriate to believe in every claim that happens by.

 

You also have introduced an interesting question. A Tarot Card reader, who can "see" into the future: Is such a person to be defined as a "Time Traveler" or no ?

 

 

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You also have introduced an interesting question. A Tarot Card reader, who can "see" into the future: Is such a person to be defined as a "Time Traveler" or no ?

I know this might not be an answer to your question, but still I wanted to give my thoughts on seeing into the future.

 

I have thought about "seeing into the future" for a long time and have come up with 2 theories.

 

For the sake of simplicity from now on I'll call "seeing into the future" the future-gaze.

 

(I know you could say clairvoyance, but that seems to be not only confined to seeing into the future)

 

Alright, I think there are essentially 2 types of future-gazes:

 

1. The "normal" future-gaze during which you see events that can be prevented.

 

2. The future-gaze during which you see events that cannot be prevented.

 

I have dubbed the second type of future-gazing the "cassandra gaze". More on that later.

 

About #1:

 

Let's assume that when you gaze into the future, you can see events that would've normally transpired, had you not have the ability to gaze into the future.

 

This means the version of the future you see, is a future that includes all the events that follow your future-gazing, WITHOUT having the knowledge of the future-gaze you're performing right now.

 

For example you could see yourself getting run over by a car, because you picked up a coin in the middle of the street.

 

What you can do now is to prevent this from happening by NEVER EVER picking up a coin from the middle of any street!

 

I don't say you cannot die of other causes, but you can prevent this specific event from happening.

 

About the cassandra-gaze (#2):

 

Let's assume here that when you gaze into the future, you can see events that will transpire exactly as you see them, no matter what you do.

 

And with "no matter what you do" I don't mean that something magically interferes to make the events happen, but rather that the very actions you do to prevent it, will actually be the cause of the event.

 

This means the version of the future you see, is a future that includes all the events that follow your future-gazing, INCLUDING the knowledge of the future-gaze you're performing right now.

 

so the very act of gazing into the future changed it to another future that would not necessarily have transpired, had you not gazed.

 

Because of the dilemma of not being able to prevent what is coming, this is what brought me to dub it the "cassandra-gaze".

 

The "normal" future-gaze is what you'd like to have, since you see a future that would've normally transpired.

 

You can prevent anything you see there, because those events don't came into existence because of your knowledge.

 

The "cassandra-gaze" on the other hand is NOT what you'd like to have, since you see a future that will transpire the way you saw it.

 

You cannot prevent what you see there, because those events came into existence BECAUSE of your future knowledge.

 

If you'd have the "normal" version, awesome.

 

If you'd have the "cassandra" version, I think it's best not to gaze into the future EVER! Except for if you like mental torture or would like to know how exactly you die.

 

I prefer not to know how it will end. ;)

 

P.S.: Sorry, this was supposed to be shorter, I hope you don't mind that much. :)

 

 

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No...I don't think your post was too long. I have the same habit. :)

 

I was once told by someone I consider to be as real a psychic as one can get, and it was said that even IF a terrible event was foreseen, it would not be mentioned for the simple fact that the mere mention of it could BE the cause.

 

As you said, if you saw yourself getting hit by a car. This result's in a paranoia about car's, maybe specific cars, as in blue Toyota's. Then at some point, you see a blue Toyota, get all freaked out and run for it, and get slammed down by a bus.

 

IF you hadn't seen the event, then you might have not been influenced by fear, and would have simply moved to the sidewalk, safe and sound.

 

The difference I would consider are those events that happen that don't have any real outcome or specific actions required to take place.

 

In another thread here, I posted about an event that happened to me. I was driving on a remote dirt road in the Mojave. As I was traveling along the road, I had an image ( with the feeling's of a memory )of coming across a certain type of truck, stuck in the sand, my associates and myself stopping and helping.

 

I didn't really have any particular direction in mind, and when coming to a crossroad, selected a direction to travel, in a manner I considered to be random.

 

When we came up over a rise in the road, to my astonishment, there was "the" truck stuck in the sand on the side of the road. The truck in the sand was exactly as I had foreseen in the pre-memory ?

 

We did stop and help. However, in the pre-memory, the method of getting him out, was slightly different than the method we used in getting the truck free of the sand. In the pre-memory, I saw us using shovels to place vegatation under the wheel's of the truck, and in the image, this wasnt working. I can still remember the pre-memory of the motorist smoking his tires on the material we shoved around the wheels.

 

Without myself saying anything, one of my associates already began to utilize ropes to hook to the bumper of the stranded vehicle,and a few of the other folks jumping into the bedof his truck to add weight, and we pulled him out, instead of the alternative "memory".

 

After the event was said and done, "I" now have two sets of memories of the event. One set, that didn't occur as I remember, and the other set, as the event played out.

 

I never felt as though that I actually played an active role in any portion of the event.

 

I like the term you used in your post...has a certain feel to it, "Cassandra Gaze". Awesome, mon.

 

Is mind-travel the same as time travel ? HDRKid, sitting in a chair, using a device to have "visions" of the future, isn't that much different than the Tarot Card reader, is it ?

 

So, could any of us declare that the Tarot Card reader is in fact a time traveler ?

 

Where do we draw the line, and establish a foundation as to whom is a bonafide "time" traveler ?

 

When I come across the term "time traveler", it immediately brings up the image of someone entering into a machine, and physically traveling to somewhere along the time-line. Not somebody sitting in one spot in time, and mentally being in another.

 

( whoops -- just noticed the other thread that is about this exact concept ) O_o

 

 

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@kennethmd:

 

Traveling back in time and buying ice cream will not effect the time line.

The link you provided doesn't seem to work for me at the moment.

 

But what you said about buying ice cream not affecting the timeline is not true.

 

From the very moment of your arrival in the past you've already changed the timeline.

 

Because before that no time traveller arrived (or bought an ice cream for that matter).

 

When you make changes (and that includes just being in the past), it doesn't matter how small a change is, a change is a change.

 

And saying that something that seems to have no big ramifications because it is so trivial, is no guarantee that it actually won't.

 

You have to be prepared that WHATEVER you change, no matter how small, can have as much as big an impact later on as if you'd have committed arson.

 

Of course you can try to keep as low a profile as possible, so that the probability of unwanted consequences are low. But as I said, it's no guarantee.

 

This means if one ever travels back in time, he better not be ignorant to that fact.

 

EDIT: Link works now, will take a look.

 

EDIT 2: Can you give me a hint where on that website I can find what you were referring to? :)

 

 

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Buying ice cream in it self will not change the time line. But, if there was a line of people were there buying ice cream. And one of them had a importing meeting to get to. You may end up causing that person in losing his or her job. Which in turn will get someone hire in his or her place, and that person may or may not be better doing the job. But he or she gotten hire because you took your time in the ice cream line.

 

 

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I just went back in time and bought some ice cream. I even flirted with the person serving it. And went on a date with them. You know what? History didn't change. That's because nearly everybody never makes it to the history books. There are billions of people alive on earth at any given time, yet only a handful are remembered beyond their lives. Making major changes can typically only be done by very deliberate acts. Or extreme carelessness. :)

 

 

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I think you mistake changing the timeline with chaniging the history. They are two very different things.

 

A change in the timeline is ANY change, no matter how small, that makes it different to how it was in an earlier form.

 

That means if you add even one single atom from the future into the past, even if it's not on earth, you've CHANGED the timeline.

 

The size or importance from the viewpoint of us humans doesn't matter!

 

A change in the history of one or more persons on the other hand, or to be more precise: a specific outcome in the life of one or more humans is a VERY different thing.

 

Because in order to succeffully change a specific outcome for this human/these humans you have to make specific changes.

 

And then it counts WHICH changes you make. They can be comprised of only miniscule changes, or big changes, or both.

 

It's all a question of what consequences these changes have if you follow their chain-reactions.

 

But again, that's something else entirely compared to what counts as a change in a timeline!

 

 

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But still it doesn't matter if a change will have big or small effects in the long run.

 

The outcome doesn't change the fact that a change still remains a change.

 

Just because it will be dampened to have almost no effect does not mean it will vanish.

 

For example:

 

Let's assume that, originally, somewhere deep in the woods there is a spot which hasn't seen a human for 6 years already.

 

On one of the trees in this spot, there is a fly.

 

Now let's call this point in time: A

 

This fly flies around this spot the whole day. Since it's lifespan is nearing its end it will die a few hours later.

 

10 Years pass...

 

Now someone, let's call him Adam, want's to travel back in time 10 years. He takes his time machine to some remote part of the woods.

 

Incidentally he chooses the exact spot I just talked about earlier.

 

He turns on the time machine and BAM, arrives 10 years into the past.

 

From the point of view of the timeline he will arrive in it looks like this:

 

...somewhere deep in the woods there is a spot which hasn't seen a human for 6 years already.

 

On one of the trees in this spot, there is a fly.

 

At time A, from one moment to the next out of nowhere, there's suddenly a man standing in the middle of this spot!

 

The fly smells something funny on this man and flies towards him and then lands on his face.

 

Unfortunately for the fly though Adam's hand is very fast and smashes the fly.

 

And for simplicity's sake let's say that after that Adam somehow lost interest in doing whatever he came here for and leaves this timeline again.

 

END OF STORY

 

Alright, now what has changed?

 

Well, first the timeline where Adam originated from, had in its past NO Adam arriving from the future.

 

The fly died of old age.

 

But the moment Adam travelled back, the timeline he arrives in is different that the one he left.

 

Here, there's a time traveller arriving.

 

Here, the fly dies from the hand of a human who wasn't there in the other timeline.

 

Since the time traveller left immediately, the changes won't propagate into an effect that Adam would possibly mind.

 

What stays forever in that timeline thought, is that the Fly died by the hand of a human.

 

Granted, the fly would've died a few hours later eventually, but this change will still remain.

 

All the atoms Adams body pushed away would've been where he stood. But now they were moved.

 

Every single interaction between his body and the outside world made this timeline FOREVER different than the one he came from.

 

So NO MATTER how small a change and how insignificant the outcome of that change may be... it REMAINS a change.

 

Clarification:

 

With "timeline" I refer to a specific chronological sequence of events that have occured.

 

Not "human history" but the history of the whole universe, of every single atom, electron, etc.

 

P.S.: Pardon me for the length, it's the example that strechted it so much. :)

 

 

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dimaggio,

 

You're on the right track. A small change in the past is not attenuated (damped). It goes to the theory of "six degrees of separation".

 

I've used this example many times but for you I haven't used it before:

 

Suppose a time traveler goes into the past with the specific purpose of making the most minor interaction possible with the inhabitants. In that past we have Mr. Jones. He's single, never been married and has no children. I'll change my typical scenario a bit to include ice cream.

 

In the "original" history Mr. Jones has a chance first encounted with the woman that results in their marriage. From that marriage they have children. This chance encounter originally occured at location "X" and time/date "T".

 

It's now time/date "T-minus 5 minutes" and he's near Location "X". Our time traveler is at the street vendor ice cream cart as Mr. Jones walks by. Our TT tastes his ice cream and makes a comment about how good it is. Mr. Jones hears the comment, stops and buys an ice cream cone. This minor encounter was not in the original history. It takes but 1 minute. The effect is, however, that he ends up missing the chance encounter with the original Mrs. Jones. They never meet, never marry and never have their children. Instead they each meet and marry someone else and have two entirely different sets of children.

 

But the scenario is much deeper than this. In the original history the people whom they marry in the altered history themselves married someone else and had two more alternate sets of children. The people that they married in the alternate scenario also met and married different people in the original history - and had yet more different sets of children.

 

Now comes the Six Degrees of Seperation. Give this scenario six generations - about one century. In the alternate history it is extremely unlikely that there is even one human being living on Earth, in this alternate history, that was present in the original history.

 

Our time traveler did nothing more than make an off-the-cuff comment to a street vendor and changed the entire history of the planet.

 

 

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It's easy to come up with examples of interactions which are amplified in time, but not all interactions are. As a general rule, social interactions are more dynamic than typical environmental ones. One may say that the interaction of a time traveler with her past may converge on her original history (except for unnoticeable things like molecules of dirt moved) or diverge indefinitely. It is the latter upon which most focus, but both are equally possible. We should quantify this in order to make certain guidelines for time travel.

 

 

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