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Rhythm of Time


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Ran across this image in Wikipedia within the description of "time ". Found the image of the hour glass to be intriguing. Quite extraordinary when contemplated upon, the sands of experiences, life, what is to possibly be, what is, and what has gone through the opening of the here and now.


Another image that provokes some serious thought, is the musical score as done by Composer's such as Beethoven. Especially a composition like : Symphony No. 5 in C Minor, Op. 67


The use of time through-out the composition all the more fascinating considering that Beethoven was deaf at the time he composed the Symphony No. 5.


Found a colored representation of the composition in motion that truly is amazing.



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Re: Rythm of Time


Good stuff... the hour glass image resembles a two dimesnional representation of time (future on top, present at neck, past on bottom), AND is represenational of our minds (subconscious on top, conscious on bottom...and the neck is "wool pulled over our eyes", so to speak).


B's #5 link is nicely done, however it makes me wonder what it looks like in 3D, or even spiraled up into a ball, concentric, like a natural pearl.



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Re: Rythm of Time


Good stuff... the hour glass image resembles a two dimesnional representation of time (future on top, present at neck, past on bottom), AND is represenational of our minds (subconscious on top, conscious on bottom...and the neck is "wool pulled over our eyes", so to speak).

Does cause one to wonder how much certain people in the past understood time in ways that we either don't recognize or have forgotten. Looking at a digital clock, sort of takes away some of the depth of time.


This was also noticed in listening to various versions of Beethoven's 5th, some versions as performed as "he" wrote it, an Orchestra opposed to synthesized versions. The synthesized versions all seemed to be missing something. Similar to, but not the same.


B's #5 link is nicely done, however it makes me wonder what it looks like in 3D, or even spiraled up into a ball, concentric, like a natural pearl.

Yeah ! I was wondering the same. In watching the "colored graphical score animation", images of DNA sequencing came to mind.


Currently, in trying to learn how to play a particular style of Native American Flute, the flute was created as : Anasazi Flute in A. With the music produced by force in motion, causes the music to flow "around" the core "A".


This brought to mind the dual-helix structuring of DNA, and the relative simularities.


The Native American Flute sheet music got me to wondering about what a symphony would look like, taking all the variations into consideration. In looking at Beethoven's 5th Symphony, was enough to cause pause.


It seemed to me that what I was looking at was the mysteries of the Universe written on paper.


In reading up on the details of the engineering( composition ) of a musical score, the simularities only increased the further I went into the world of music.


Many of the descriptions seemed appropriate to time, as we would "like to" discuss time here in TTI.


In reading about the Stave ( as a starting point ) ;


" The musical stave is analogous to a mathematical graph of pitch with respect to time... "


" exact timing is encoded by the musical symbols chosen for each note... "


" A time signature is to the right of the clef, indicating the realtionship between timing counts and note symbols, while bar lines group notes on the stave into measures. "


Also these :


" Rhythm (from greek ῥυθμός – rhythmos, "any measured flow or movement, symmetry") is the variation of the length and accentuation of a series of sounds or other events. "


" Rhythmic successions which are additive (same duration repeated), cumulative (short-long), or countercumulative (long-short). Cumulation is associated with closure or relaxation, countercumulation with openness or tension, while additive rhythms are open-ended and repetitive. Richard Middleton points out this method cannot account for syncopation and suggests the concept of transformation. "


--- [ Motion and Rest ? ] ---


A rhythmic unit is a durational pattern which occupies a period of time equivalent to a pulse or pulses on an underlying metric level..."


--- [ Anasazi Flute in "A" , with all variations of audio revolving around the core of "A" ? ] ---


The following seems more fitting of a 2-dimensional representation of B's Symphony No. 5 ....




That Beethoven was considered to be deaf, yet, was able to compose such fantastic scores as written in a 2-dimensional format as shown above -- astounding !!! This seems to be an excellent example that so there is much more to existence than many people imagine.


As you, Paladius, yourself wondered about ; " what it looks like in 3D, or even spiraled..." ; must have been something that Beethoven could inherently accomplish with music ( sound ). Although he was deaf, Beethoven could still hear what he was composing.


With regards to the material presnted in this thread and time ; The mapping of sound ( audio waves and time ) is something that has been done for centuries.


Is it possible to use the same system for another form of waves ( measures ) and particles ( notes ) ? such as Electromagnetic Radiation ( light ) ?


The Seven Secrets of the Universe ?


1. Resonance


2. Rhythm


3. Melody


4. Harmony


5. Pitch


6. Timbre


7. Toning


The far-reaching depth's of these 7 known elements of music, and to see what correlations could be structured the same with other wave and/or particle frequencies.



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Re: Rythm of Time


Eh? Beethoven was not deaf all of his life. He could hear at one time, and anyone with learning perfect pitch can hear the muscial notes in his/her head much like photographic memory in some people, but when college books come out with limited-thinking humans who only equate to their own purposes, you have books that do not teach others really on how-to-think about calculus and anything, but just demon purposes.


Slide a needle across a 33-1/3 album and there is notes, in the scratch that ends up there. Do it enough time and someone may even think it is music in the end. But to hear John Williams and his themes in some of the movies made, just adds another dimension to a musical score, like Indiana Jones and Jaws to E.T. The Extraterrestial, to Superman movies to anything else he wrote the musical score to.


Then there is rap, and more modern music that wants to beat your brain into submission.


The end result is that there is - silence between the notes and in the Eastern Cultures, notes beyond just the 12 in an octave we ended up with here. There are half-tones and anything else, but then that all sounds strange when first listening to it, unless you grew up with it, just like a foreign language. Then there is 432 Hz to tune to instead of Gobel's 440Hz and even Russia's 435Hz for a standard A note and musical scale.


So timing may be something, but then there is also bombardment of the brain with all the noise it ends up seeming to be, but only sometimes.


Now go listen to young children just learning music, and now there is relief at their attempts to learn music, then go listen to chords in jazz that some musicians produce and Beethoven seems to slip away back into the Past, where it was those times and musical melodies that came out.


Or as "Fly like an Eagle" song came out:


Time, keeps on slippin' slippin' slippin' into the future!


You've got to Fly Like An Eagle, to be Free


Fly like an Eagle, let your Spirit carry............



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Re: Rythm of Time


And it was never ever about drugs, but from musicians who learnt from masters, such as Steve Miller.



The time flow of the music, the flow of time throughout the ages and the difference that come about because of heads and brains being used to create the music and the tonal qualities of the


On the 8th day, God created the Hammond B3 Electronic Organ with tone generators!


In time, new instruments to use the head and brain with only one way, and with music, while others use it another way, and if all people were the same, then there be no need to have "Time" even thought about.




The ages of time, of time progession inheritant in the brain and minds and souls of the people.


The conscious element not the unconscious elements throughout time.



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Re: Rythm of Time


ON Beethoven, I believe his deafness (yes, came later in life) was partial. When you "become" deaf, you lose hearing of certain frequencies. Just like someone who has 1200/20 vision is considered blind, but can still "see", someone considered deaf can still hear... IF your coclia(i think that is what its called) is damaged you lose frequency pickup in a range only. This part of the ear is nautilus spiral shaped and the smaller the tube opening, the higher the frequency it picks up and translates to electrical signal down a synapse. Beethoven likely had a loss in the range of 400-1600 hrtz (where human voice has constant sounds). This would make Beethove unable to comprehend speech, yet be able to pick up other lower and higher frequencies. Few instruments have full ranges in that freq. range, and the brain has a way of compensating for loss of specific frequencies. The likely hood that Beethoven composed this piece while speech deaf is certain, but he also likely composed it while other frequency enhanced.


Brain Train Lesson #247 : Put hard foam ear plugs (different from soft foam) in your ears and wear them for 3-4 days, day and night. After a few days, you will be able to hear things you could not pick up before, such as refridge compressor pump bearings, air moving through duct work, etc. The brain learns quickly to adapt.


ON music being 7 wonders of universe... well, frequency is the wonder. Pitch, tone, speed, camber, etc. A musical note is an energy. . A series of notes is compound. There are star clusters that when converted to music mathematically, will mimic Beethovens 5th.


The stars are the instruction manual. Look Up (if the light pollution still allows to see anything of depth)



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Re: Rythm of Time


ON Beethoven...

Regarding Beethoven's hearing affliction, I made a mistake. According to the biography about Beethoven, he lost his hearing gradually , and the 5th was "not" written when he was completely deaf.


He did become completely deaf in time, and apparently performed only once for an audience playing an instrument himself, met with disaster, then never did it again. He did perform Symphony No. 9 as the Conductor, and the biography I read mentions that it was said that he was a couple of measures off from the actual score. In addition, one of the members of the Orchestra had to physically turn him around to see the audience's applause.


Absolutely astounding reading ; Beethoven's biography. An entire thread could be written about Beethoven's life, the adversities he faced, and his accomplishments.


Brain Train Lesson #247 ...

I love those kind of experiments. However, I am married and as such, develop selective hearing qualities naturally, as a matter of fact, I will be adjusting my freqeuncy filters tomorrow during Superbowl. :)


ON music ...

Not necessarily about "the music". More regarding about "the essences". And you are correct, frequency is the wonder, however, is tightly connected with those 7 essences.


Sound or audio waves being only a portion of the spectrum of existence, but shares simularities to the other portions of the same spectrum.


And as you mentioned, the Stars are the instruction manual ( I live in the country, so can see the nightsky in-depth ) and already, some are converting Electromagnetic Radiation of Celestial "bodies" into audio formats.


Sound of the Sun


compared to :



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Re: Rythm of Time


The concept I envision is that the spectrum of existence ( which you could equate as frequencies ) can be compared to different "measures". The different "measures" of the specturm complete the score, whether seen or un-seen.


That each "measure" along the spectrum seems to reflect the same attributes as the others, by looking at a "measure" that is better understood, may open the doorway to understanding the other "measures" through a comparable analysis type of undertaking.


To quote from Wikipedia under Spectrum of Frequencies :


" Any signal that can be represented as an amplitude that varies with time has a corresponding frequency spectrum. This includes familiar concepts such as visible light (color), musical notes, radio/TV channels, and even the regular rotation of the earth. When these physical phenomena are represented in the form of a frequency spectrum, certain physical descriptions of their internal processes become much simpler. Often, the frequency spectrum clearly shows harmonics, visible as distinct spikes or lines, that provide insight into the mechanisms that generate the entire signal. "


" rhythms are usually arranged with respect to a time signature , partially signifying a meter. The speed of the underlying pulse... "


" In a musical score, the time signature appears at the beginning of the piece, as a time symbol or stacked numerals (such as "C" or 3/4) immediately following the key signature (or immediately following the clef if the piece is in C major, A minor, or a modal subset). A mid-score time signature, usually immediately following a barline, indicates a change of meter.


There are various types of time signatures, depending on whether the music follows simple rhythms or involves unusual shifting tempos, including (all explained below): simple (such as 3/4 or 4/4), compound (e.g. 9/8 or 12/8), complex (e.g. 5/4 or 7/8), mixed (e.g. 5/8,3/8 or 6/8,3/4), additive (e.g. (3+2+3)/8), fractional (e.g. 2½/4), irrational meters (e.g. 3/10 or 5/24), or other meters. "





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  • 3 weeks later...

Re: Rythm of Time


well, frequency is the wonder. Pitch, tone, speed, camber, etc. A musical note is an energy. . A series of notes is compound

That really is a simple, (and subsequently) significant truth.


Importantly, together they appear to be the structure of ORDER. They seem to hold together the LAWS of the universe. You could say that mans ability to create music, is and always will be his greatest 'material' achievement, regardless of the seemingly limitless other things he will discover.


It is where he uses his WILL to create his own order. Many greek mystery schools would describe a Magician's destiny to utilise his WILL in ORDER to sing in tune with the song of the universe and within every action he contributes. Our fascination with Music is an extention of this impulse.


These principles, together, easily open doorways - because it is in their nature. Time itself is merely a manifestation of these prinicples.


Its a shame that this thread probably wont develop as it should!



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Re: Rythm of Time


Good to see you again, Olly!


Its a shame that this thread probably wont develop as it should!

I am with Kerr on this one. To use a quote which I do not know the attribution for: "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Some of us here are very much in-tune (pardon the pun) with your take, Olly. If you help develop the meat of this thread, I assure you some of us will aid in filling-in the blanks.


Bring it on! :D





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The hour glass and music both have a lot in common with time. The hour glass and the sand note the passage of time. The sand itself has even been referred to as the sands of time. Deaf people even partially death people can relate to music. I know this from experience. Music itself is embedded with time. Not just the pitch, the melodies, the play on notes. A musician has to keep step with time to play the music. There is code in the music that allows the music to speed up or to slow down just like real time. The music is a way to play out life with notes just as a play or tv show would play out life with actors. For those who have put in the work and have the gift of music there is a joy, a peace, a tranquility with being able to play the music itself. For the violin one of the hardest instruments to learn the musician can enjoy the music just as much if not more than the audience. For Beethoven his music was his passion and his life. Even being partially or fully deaf.



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A little bit of a side-step here ;


Imagine how much differently we might approach life if our lives were measured with an hour-glass ?


To see a visual on how much time we have left, to see our life slipping through the center ( the here and now ), and how much of our life has spilled into the bottom portion of the glass.



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  • 9 months later...

Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents


I was going to author a separate thread for this, but feel that the subject matter relates to the material already presented in this thread.


Some may have realized I was absent from TTI for a few months, and during that absence I became involved with photography. My main interest(s) in photography are landscapes and wildlife. Traveling around to capture different subjects, I ran across numerous people. During one photo-op, the discussion turned to oddities and anomalies.


It was mentioned that there are stories coming from an area that involves anomalies in time. Although there are quite a few accounts, the one that has really attracted my attention was this account :


A particluar area constantly is affected by conditions as a result of the Telluric Currents, knocking out power within that particular section of the electrical grid. A lineman was sent into the remote region to make repairs and restore the electricity.


While the lineman was completing the repairs, he looked down and saw a small group of primitive looking men staring up at him. The "primitive" appearing men, were wearing what was later determined to be that of the Karankawa Tribesmen ( Warriors ), and were also armed with weapons of the Karankawa era.


The lineman looked around for a brief moment, then, looking down, the small group of Native Americans was gone. From his vantage point, he didnt know of any way they would be able to travel away without being seen.


As it turns out, numerous people have had encounters with Karankawa warriors on more than one occasion. A game warden actually had an arrow shot at him from one of these warriors, and it was identifed as that of Karankawa origin.


One problem with these people encountering Karankawa warriors, is that the Karankawa Tribe ceased to exist some 300 years ago. So who is it these people are encountering ?


It has been suggested that when the Spanish exterminated most of the Karankawa Tribe, some of the group escaped to the East, moving into the depths of the swamps to escape the persecution. That the warriors being seen in modern times are remnants of the refugee's is possible. However, no place is really all that remote in North American any longer, so it seems that somebody would come across the remains of an encampment of any current Karankawa people still hiding out. No signs of such has been discovered.


This region is also known for other anomalies, which can be attributed to the Telluric Currents.


Floating orbs of light, power fluctuations in anything electrical, and consistent power failures within the electrical grid that runs through this particular region.


What struck me with regards to the account as told about the experiences of the lineman, was that IF some sort of temporal fold occurs in this area, and two frequencies of time merge:


Why would the lineman remain in his "time", and the Karankawa warriors, remain in their "time" ?



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Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents


To avoid interuption of your thread, Timelord, decided to answer your question ;


How do you think telluric currents can be harnessed for time travel?



It wouldn't necessarily be harnessing the Telluric Currents for time travel, but, taking advantage of a temporal portal that may already exist "because of" the Telluric Currents.


The portal would be time dependent, and may only exist when specific conditions are met.


It seems to me, that the more important question was that as posted above. Assuming that the Karankawa being encountered are "in the past" and that the lineman is in the "present", if due to some sort of temporal fold in the Telluric fields, caused a temporal window, why is it that the lineman stayed in his present, and the Karankawa stayed in their present ?


In giving this question some thought, it occured to me that each of them were bound by these 7 "ingredients" within their respective here and now's.


1. Resonance


2. Rhythm


3. Melody


4. Harmony


5. Pitch


6. Timbre


7. Toning


Further research into the behaviour of the Telluric Currents, also yields explainations of numerous anomalies, such as the Bermuda Triangle. The Telluric Currents can be horizontal,and or vertical, and are measured as such. Imagine if there are periods of some sort of spike, as experienced with the transatlantic cable mentioned in both of the materials linked in my post within (your) TimeLords Poll Thread.


What effect would such a spike ( or short-circuit, of sorts ) have on any form of transportation using electronics and/or that has electrical circuits ?


It is also mentioned in the website regarding Geomagnatism that the currents are being studied for use by several organization's, including the DoD.


The USGS Geomagnetism Program


Large storms can cause the loss of radio communication, reduce the accuracy of global-positioning systems, damage satellite electronics and affect satellite operations, enhance radiation levels for astronaut and high-altitude pilots, increase pipeline corrosion, and induce voltage surges in electric power grids, causing blackouts.


( Hmm..what else could 'large storms' do, and to 'what' ? )


The mission of the U.S. Geological Survey's Geomagnetism Program is to monitor the Earth's magnetic field. Using ground-based observatories, the Program provides continuous records of magnetic field variations covering long timescales; disseminates magnetic data to various governmental, academic, and private institutions; and conducts research into the nature of geomagnetic variations for purposes of scientific understanding and hazard mitigation. The Program is an integral part of the U.S. Government's National Space Weather Program (NSWP), which also includes programs in the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), the Department of Defense (DOD), the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), and the National Science Foundation (NSF). The NSWP works to provide timely, accurate, and reliable space weather warnings, observations, specifications, and forecasts, and its work is important for the U.S. economy and national security. ( USGS Geomagnetic Program Summary )


To also quote from Wikipedia :


A telluric current is an electric current which moves underground or through the sea. Telluric currents result from both natural causes and human activity, and the discrete currents interact in a complex pattern.

To further the hypothesis relative to the encounters with Native Americans that no longer exist in this time period, and someone is able to achieve a frequency signature(s) that ( whether by accident or on purpose ) matches the frequency signature(s) of the Karankawa's time period.


Will that result with that individual in staying in any given time period ?


IF it is planned out, and once the individual is within the past, has a goal of making their way to specific locations, such as traveling to the Hopi Tribal Lands...we would end up with modern day myths such as this :


Pahana (or Bahana) is the Lost White Brother of the Hopi. Most versions have it that the Pahana or Elder Brother left for the east at the time that the Hopi entered the Fourth World and began their migrations. However, the Hopi say that he will return again and at his coming the wicked will be destroyed and a new age of peace, the Fifth World, will be ushered into the world. As mentioned above, it is said he will bring with him a missing section of a sacred Hopi stone in the possession of the Fire Clan, and that he will come wearing red. Traditionally, Hopis are buried facing eastward in expectation of the Pahana who will come from that direction.


( Source - Wikipedia - Hopi Mythology )


The following extraordinary Hopi prophecy was first published in a mimeographed manuscript that circulated among several Methodist and Presbyterian churches in 1959. Some of the prophecies were published in 1963 by Frank Waters in The Book of the Hopi. The account begins by describing how, while driving along a desert highway one hot day in the summer of 1958, a minister named David Young stopped to offer a ride to an Indian elder, who accepted with a nod. After riding in silence for several minutes, the Indian said:


"My people await Pahana, the lost White Brother, [from the stars] as do all our brothers in the land. He will not be like the white men we know now, who are cruel and greedy. we were told of their coming long ago. But still we await Pahana.


"He will bring with him the symbols, and the missing piece of that sacred tablet now kept by the elders, given to him when he left, that shall identify him as our True White Brother.


"The Fourth World shall end soon, and the Fifth World will begin. This the elders everywhere know. The Signs over many years have been fulfilled, and so few are left.


"This is the First Sign: We are told of the coming of the white-skinned men, like Pahana, but not living like Pahana men who took the land that was not theirs. And men who struck their enemies with thunder.


"This is the Second Sign: Our lands will see the coming of spinning wheels filled with voices. In his youth, my father saw this prophecy come true with his eyes -- the white men bringing their families in wagons across the prairies."


"This is the Third Sign: A strange beast like a buffalo but with great long horns, will overrun the land in large numbers. These White Feather saw with his eyes -- the coming of the white men's cattle."


"This is the Fourth Sign: The land will be crossed by snakes of iron."


"This is the Fifth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web."


"This is the Sixth sign: The land shall be criss-crossed with rivers of stone that make pictures in the sun."


"This is the Seventh Sign: You will hear of the sea turning black, and many living things dying because of it."


"This is the Eight Sign: You will see many youth, who wear their hair long like my people, come and join the tribal nations, to learn their ways and wisdom.


"And this is the Ninth and Last Sign: You will hear of a dwelling-place in the heavens, above the earth, that shall fall with a great crash. It will appear as a blue star. Very soon after this, the ceremonies of my people will cease.


"These are the Signs that great destruction is coming. The world shall rock to and fro. The white man will battle against other people in other lands -- with those who possessed the first light of wisdom. There will be many columns of smoke and fire such as White Feather has seen the white man make in the deserts not far from here. Only those which come will cause disease and a great dying.


"Many of my people, understanding the prophecies, shall be safe. Those who stay and live in the places of my people also shall be safe. Then there will be much to rebuild. And soon -- very soon afterward -- Pahana will return. He shall bring with him the dawn of the Fifth World. He shall plant the seeds of his wisdom in their hearts. Even now the seeds are being planted. These shall smooth the way to the Emergence into the Fifth World.


"But White Feather shall not see it. I am old and dying. You -- perhaps will see it. In time, in time..." ( Source - Crystallinks - Hopi Prophecies )




IF someone did indeed make it through, into the past, in order to travel to the Hopi Tribal Lands to fulfill the Hopi Myths, would mean traveling through some hostile country. Even upon arrival, if the departure point is within the Trinity Bay region, hostile Native Americans there could pose a big problem.


One way to avoid some of the hostilities, would be to appear as a mythical figure. This might be enough to avoid conflict with most of the "superstitious" Native American people encountered during the traveling across the country.


Odd that a white man showed up in the Hopi Tribal Lands, wouldn't you say ? And what he told the Hopi's, could be told by someone that knew these events would take place because Pahana was from some point in the future.


Pahana sounds like a time traveler, who tries to change the present through the past.


I do, of course, question the list of signs as presented in the Crystal links site ; A mimeographed copy of "what Pahana said" could easily have been made up long after the real Pahana actually visited the Hopi Tribe in the past, and whomever "The Lost White Brother" was; Might NOT have actually said those things as listed.


But, still, have to wonder who Pahana was ? and where did he come from ?


I believe there are clues to those questions, but will save those for later. :P



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Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents


Interesting. It's difficult to conclude anything definitive from an anecdote, though. But let's go along with it anyway, for now. There are a few seemingly unrelated things which I will describe here, and you may see later if they're important.


1) At the center of the earth is very hot material (lava, molten metal, whatever). The point is, it emits infrared light. Closer to the surface but underground, we have the red earth. Just above that we have the green foliage. Further still, there is the blue sky, followed by the sun emitting many wavelengths including UV light. The further from the center of the earth we get, the shorter the wavelength of light emitted or reflected on average.


2) During the day, the sky appears to be the same colour throughout, but at sunrise & sunset, it becomes apparent that there is a gradient of colour across the sky due to refraction. We might assume that after the last red of sunset has disappeared that some longer wavelength has taken its place. It becomes apparent after some thought that the colour of the sky is frequency modulated with a modulation period of 24 hours.


3) The telluric currents are weak but ever-present. And they seem to alternate directions at the same rate as the earth spins (24 hour period).


4) If you have 2 wave sources near each other emitting equal frequencies, a standing wave will develop between them, with stationary nodes where the wave amplitude is zero. However, if the frequencies are slightly different, the nodes will move from the higher frequency source to the lower at a speed of v = c(f1+f2)/(f1-f2), where c is the wave speed, v is the nodal wave speed, and f1 & f2 are the frequencies of the emitters. The value of v can easily exceed c. If we're dealing with acoustic waves, loose particles (sand, salt, etc.) tend to move toward the nodes in a standing wave. What about EM waves, and what about moving nodes?


5) According to the story, one person was in one time period and the others were in another, or one individual travelled back in time temporarily. Either way. The most logical approach to time travel from a mathematical perspective seems to be to find an equation that defines t® as the temporal location t at a specific spatial location r. In other words, instead of time being the independent variable, we make space the independent variable & time dependent on it & something else.





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Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents


It's difficult to conclude anything definitive from an anecdote

Agreed. Yes, it does fall into the category of fantastical, without much basis in scientific method. I know that this goes against the grain, as it were, for several of the members here. So, thank-you for your patience during this phase of the discussion.


Unfortunately, I have to stay in the land of the fantastical -- for the moment.


You mentioned that you are working on a time traveling theory. Let's assume that you believe you have formulated a method that seems workable. Based on the theory you have developed, you create a plan relative to traveling back into the past.


IF you believe that your plan is viable, and has a chance to work, it seems reasonable that you would include some sort of proof that it worked.


One way to prove that you made it, would be by leaving some sort of sign(s) behind, that only you would recognize. These sign(s) would have to blend in with whatever time period, making it so that others won't recognize it. If you create "clues" now, THEN look for them, IF your time traveling theory actually works, you will find those signs, now.


Lets call this particular plan : The Pahana Project.


Based on the numerous accounts that are originating in the Trinity Bay area, we really don't know "when" the portal goes to. We can surmise from "who" is being seen, what type of environment will be encountered.


To travel into the past, we would not want to take anything that, if lost, would create problems if discovered at some point in the future. I.E., taking an Automatic Weapon, if lost, would cause quite a stir if discovered by Archaeologists in some ancient Native American ruins.


However, taking weapons that might be indigenous to a particular era, but attributed to another culture, although might cause a ripple in the scientific community, would be something that could be explained.


Thus, the participants of The Pahana Project, will go out-fitted as Knights Templar's.


There are already rumors and theories that the Templar's did roam the North American Continent, so, if someone involved in The Pahana Project loses anything, the discovery of the items, wouldn't really raise any alarms.


And, I would hope that the sight of armed Templar Knights moving amongst the Native American tribes would be significant enough with differences, that the team-members could be perceived as mythical beings by the Natives that are encountered. Also would provide The Pahana Project team with viable weapons to carry out their mission.


Now, by studying the myths that exist now, every effort would be made to "fit" into those myths.


One of the missions of The Pahana Project would be to travel to the Hopi Tribal Lands and fulfill the role of Pahana. Once there, to leave behind signs that provide proof that someone from The Pahana Project made it.


The signs would be created to be recognized by team-members still in their respective time period.




I will admit that all of this would make for a great Science Fiction novel. Having such a plan in place, certainly is NOT traveling through time, and certainly such a plan ( in itself ) does NOT contain a viable method for traveling through time.


However, with a plan in place, then...comes the hard part ( to say the least -- and you are probably laughing at this particular point...um..or a least laughing harder ) , where science has to pick-up the reins, so to speak.


We have the accounts of encounters of the primitive Native American's. The lineman episode is only one account out of several dozens. However, the reason why I latched onto the lineman account, is that IF the Telluric activity in that particular region is causing failures in the electrical lines, resulting with "why" the lineman was sent "there" to make repairs in the first place, it seems like a good starting point.


Still, though, even having all the accounts compiled, does NOT tell us "where" and "when" a Temporal Fold will occur. Since the Trinity Bay region is rather large, standing around in Knights Templar attire won't accomplish anything based on assumptions and stories. :)


We are faced with two choices.


1) Try to figure out the "when" and "where" there will be a window created by an effect of the Telluric Currents, and other possible influences. Which, is a highly complex achievement.




2) To artificially create a window, using the "tools" on-hand already. Still would be a daunting task to achieve, but however daunting the task may be, from the materials available relative to the "forces" in motion, doesn't seem entirely impossible TO achieve.


As far the mathematics involved, the equations and formulas are in place :


Dst and the epicycles of magnetic disturbance


And the USGS website has calculators already available to use in monitoring the activity of any particular co-ordinates.


On-line calculators to estimate current and past values of the magnetic field


Also what would have to be done is to verify the different accounts of the encounters with the Karankawa, and try to determine the "when" and "where" each of the encounters took place, then develop an idea of what the conditions were when the encounters took place; In an effort to duplicate those conditions.


Just for the fun of it :


Keeping it in mind that the team of The Pahana Project are going to leave behind signs that they made it, perhaps you could post a symbol in this thread that the team could inscribe into rock for you to recognize. Remember, the symbol would have to be something that isn't complex nor difficult to inscribe into stone AND has to blend somewhat into symbols already attributed to ancient inscriptions.


Maybe a mathematical symbol. Would be interesting to see if the symbol "you" create for The Pahana Project team to prove they made it, can be found "after" you've done this.


Granted, you have an opportunity to pull a fast one, and go on-line to find a symbol, copy it here, then when it is found, proclaim that the experiment can be falsified because you made it to be so.


You know that one of the missions is to travel to the Hopi Tribal lands...and this is where the symbol would be placed. Now, as easy as it would be to falsify the symbol you provide, I would hope that you are curious enough to want to see what happens, and keep the experiment "clean".



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Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents


Lets call this particular plan : The Pahana Project.

A complicated plan that is too subjective. There's an easier way: reactor synthesized radioactive isotopes.


You want to test your gadget by traveling 90 years into the past. You take along with you 100 grams of Pu-238. It has a half-life of 87.5 years and plutonium can only be synthesized in a reactor. It is not a natural occuring element. Every reactor leaves a unique identifiable "signiture" on the elements that are synthesized.


Take the plutonium from a reactor that did not exist 90 years in the past. HIde it in the past, return "home" to the present and dig it up. You should have a lump of stuff that is approximately 49% Pu-239 and 50% U-234 and ~1% intermediate decay elements. The Pu-239 will retain the reactor signiture. If that's what you find you have very convincing objective evidence that you traveled 90 years into the past.


Americium is another transuranic element synthesized in reactors. Am-241 has a half-life of 432.2 years. Am-243 has a half-life of 7370 years. You can easily take the experiment back to the dawn of post Ice Age civilization 10 to 15 thousand years in the past.


Is it possible that these elements could occur naturally? Sure. They probably do, one atom at a time, widely scattered somewhere in the universe given quantum reality. Is it possible that a 100 gram lump of uranium will spontaneously become one of the above elements? Again, yes it is in theory possible. But it is so incredibly improbable that raising that objection against the experimental results would not be accepted.



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Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents


You want to test your gadget ...

There is no gadget. There also is no control regarding "when" the team-member would go to as far any particular time period. The only base relative to a time period are the eye-witness accounts of who was encountered.


Because the Karankawa ceased to exist 300 year ago, all we know is that IF there is indeed a temporal fold and/or anomaly that occurs in the Trinity Bay region, that the fold is opening a window to a time period "at least" 300 years ago...that it may go further back than that...have no idea.


In a separate account, an individual had an arrow shot at him. The individual kept the arrow, and took it to be examined, since the individual was a State Law Enforcement officer. The arrow was confirmed to be that of the Karankawa Tribe. Which, once again, none of whom has existed for 300 years.


And, yes, you are absolutely correct, as this stage, it is subjective.


The dyanmics of the Telluric Currents, are a bit more objective, but as you mentioned...is complicated, but not necessarily insurmountable.


The question that still remains, is why these people that are having these encounters, don't end up in the same time period as the Karankawa warriors or visa versa ?


I have an idea that it is because of the 7 elements listed above, a matter of frequencies...each "component" [individual/person ] of a specific time period is defined by a frequency signature that prevents the individual/person from becoming part of a different frequency signature in time and space.



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Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents


There is no gadget


I understand that. We don't have a time machine. The experiment was based on the ongoing assumption that if you had a time machine ("the gadget") and wanted to offer proof positive that you did indeed travel back in time that there are forms of proof that are available that can't be summarily dismissed. Objections to the radioisotope evidence within the scenario proffered would require extraordinary proof. Normally we require the person who is offering proof of some extraordinary event (time travel in this case) to proove the case with overwhelming evidence. I've offered that. In that case it would then require the other side to provide extraordinary counter-argument to disprove the case.


As to the rest of your post, go back and look at it. You did say that it is subjective argument. We're talking about time travel. It will not be invented and implimented by a home garage tinkerer. It will require the resources of an entire nation - maybe the resources of an entire planet - and its best minds. In the end you want objective results. Radioisotopic analysis of neucleosynthetic elements is one method that can be used in an objective way, doesn't involve personal bias, personal philosophy, metaphysical mumbo-jumbo or pins in rag dolls. The results either are positive or they are negative.


Let's face facts: time travel to the past, given our current understanding of the physics involved or that which we can reasonably forsee in the future, are so stacked against it that it is deemed to be not possible. There are very real and currently observable effects that formulate very real and concrete roadblocks to the effort. Sorry, but that is the state of the science and it can't be dismissed with the wave of a hand. If someone actually accomplished it the "community" (meaning the physics field plus the tax payers who would end up funding the effort) aren't going to invest in people who offer proof similar to justification of the efficacy of Radionics, HDR, Philadelphia Experiment, etc. Anyone who thinks differently is deluding themself. This effort will cost a hundred years of research time, a trillion dollars, it isn't a social engineering project and offers no solutions to issues that sci-fi based time travel might address.


As I saw recently on another site, a new member mused whether time travel could prevent the Titanic Disastrer. I don't know, but if it could - what happens to the people who came into existence because of the disaster? Some people might not like the "political" implications of time travel. I can assure you that if it were a reality a few folks would have some concerns for their very existence. Other folks, musing about the "Stop Hitler" scenario would correctly conclude that you can't stop Hitler. Somewhere, sometime, someone would go back and "unstop" the Stop Hitler mission, and then someone else would unstop the "Unstop Hitler" mission, and then...and so on infinitely. No one seems to take the time to think these situations through to their obviously ridiculous conclusions. Time travel to the past implys that causality is completely defeated and effect becomes an illusion. The reason for endeavour of any sort becomes moot if anyone can arbitrarily undo it. (Yes, that's a philosophical argument, not a scientific one.)


Counter-Argument: But all of this occurs in an alternate universe. OK. Then the response is, "So what?" If it occurs in another universe it has no effect on me, you, or us. Why spend the trillion dollars for a joy ride? You can spend a few thousand and go to Tahiti if its adventure you want. The upside is that whatever you do in Tahiti affects the real world and no one would care if in the MWI some other universe has a different result. Again, so what? The Internet "theory" involves an infinite number of alternate realities and each and every possible result of the situation is played out "somewhere". Not my problem - and even if I made it my problem nothing that I did do or didn't do would change the situation. My actions would still be just one of the infinite possible results of the scenario.


Hell, I could get a bottle of Jack, lay down, drink it until its emptry, get another one and repeat the effort knowing that in an infinite number of alternate realities I'm King of Planet Earth, loved and adored by all, sober and happy. Doing nothing at all is equal to doing everything in my power...if Internet Theory 101 "MWI" is correct.



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Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents


I understand that. We don't have a time machine. The experiment was based on the ongoing assumption that if you had a time machine ("the gadget") and wanted to offer proof positive that you did indeed travel back in time that there are forms of proof that are available that can't be summarily dismissed.

Nowhere did I say anything about a time "machine", nor ever implied that The Pahana Project team has or had one, or even needs a time machine.


Yes, there are numerous subjective points, however, there are numerous objective points, as well.


the radioisotope evidence ...

Good idea, but not necessary in this instance.


As I saw recently on another site, a new member mused whether time travel could prevent the Titanic Disastrer.

And recently, on THIS site, a new member mused whether time travel could prevent the Titanic Disaster.


I have no arguement with a majority of your points...and this " was " merely a discussion, NOT an arguement to begin with; Merely a presentation of thoughts regarding anomalies of the Telluric Currents, and specific accounts of personal experiences within a specific region relating to the Telluric Currents.


And I said it up front, that the material outside the scope of this particular discussion regarding the Telluric Current anomalies would be the makings for a Science Fiction novel.


And guess what ? Time Travel Institute is a fictional forum, with an introduction to the Theories and Concepts as given by a Dr. VonSchnelling --- why anyone would blaze away on the members "here" for not following proper scientific protocol, well, needs to take a closer look at what this site is all about, starting with the first page of the site.


On the index page of the forum, it reads :


Have you ever dreamt of traveling through time? Of changing history? Of knowing the future? Join us as we discuss the hows and whys of time travel. And maybe... just maybe... your dreams will come true.


However, it seems that this has been mis-read by some to read :


Have you ever dreamt of traveling through time ? Of changing history ? Of knowing the future ? Join us as we rate your intelligence level and argue on whether or not you follow proper scientific method and/or protocol, where we will tell you in no uncertain terms the hows and whys your dream's won't work.


And if you notice on the bottom of the index page of the forum, there is this :


Sci-Fi Site of the Week - June 1, 1999


Wonder why that is ?


BTW :If there are mis-spelled words, it is because my spell checker is turned off, but that should be alright, since it seems your spell checker was turned off, as well. ;)


I told you before that you are looked up to as a respected member of TTI, and I would hope you know that I respect you, as well. As much as I respect you and your contributions, sometimes, it seems as though you go out of your way to chap some hide's. I get enough of that from my wife here at the homestead, don't need more of the same at good ol'TTI. O_o



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Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents




I meant "time machine" in the most common sense of the idea - some "anything" no matter what it is that allows one to travel back in time.


We aren't having an argument. I was offering a scenario that if The Gadget actually worked and evidence was thereafter offered as you suggested, taking some artifact into the past and leaving it there to be discovered upon your return to your "present" that no one, not even an (honest) skeptic could ignore. Dishonest skeptics would ignore it in any case but (again), who cares?


You're correct. The Titanic post was here. I read it a couple of nights ago but had a few tabs open and didn't recall which site (and while writing the post I didn't check. So much for a brilliantly thought out and thoroughly researched post. Doh!)



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Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents


We're talking about time travel. It will not be invented and implimented by a home garage tinkerer. It will require the resources of an entire nation - maybe the resources of an entire planet - and its best minds.




This effort will cost a hundred years of research time, a trillion dollars...

Prove it. :)


Just because you're unaware of anyway who currently can achieve it doesn't mean it won't be done by an individual. You seem very pessimistic in this regard. I already am working on it. :D



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Re: Rhythm of Time: Telluric Currents


Prove it.

I'll give 'er a shot. ;)


The issues that we have been facing since the 1930's when Quantum Mechanics was introduced, some 15 years after General Relativity was introduced, is a complete understanding of gravity that includes both GR and QM.


String Theory was introduced in 1982 as an attempt to quantize GR in terms of QM. We're 30 years into the effort, virtually every university physics department's theoretical physics program worldwide has been focusing the vast majority of their efforts toward string theory during that period and we still haven't solved the problem. In worldwide university research funding alone during that period we've already invested 100's of billions of dollars into the basic science necessary to begin to study time travel. During the entire 95 years of the effort we've already spent most of the trillion dollars if you figure in inflation adjustments. The LHC cost alone is approaching $9 billion.


With all of the money and research over the course of a century what have we actually discovered about time travel? We've discovered that under GR we can make certain assumptions that may or may not describe our reality, plug them into the equations and model time travel scenarios based in first principles in a pristine laboratory setting. As soon as we start plugging in more values that we know are a part of the real world the models fail. Hawking's "Chronology Protection Conjecture" isn't something that he made up on a whim or because he doesn't like the idea of time travel. It is based on the failure modes of the models. Plug in real world values and the laws of physics seem to "conspire" against violating the cause-effect relationship. This is precisely what happens with black hole based time machines. We can model certain classes of black holes in a "universe" where the black hole is embedded in an absolute vacuum space. That means that the would-be observer/time traveler is part of the absolute vacuum state of the universe, i.e. he isn't made up of matter or any other actual "stuff" - he doesn't really exist at all. Add in a real observer/time traveler, matter, photons, quantum effects, etc. and the scenarios fail.


On the homebrew side of things we see, for instance, proposals to spin up an electric field to make a time machine. But we already have that going on a 100 billion times over right here in the Milky Way Galaxy. The interior of the stars near the core have dense, 15 million degree rotating electron plasmas with electromagnetic fields so powerful that if was that easy the stars themselves should have immediately collapsed when fusion was initiated because the plasma formed time machines and the cores were whisked away to "somewhere else". Of course if that were the case there wouldn't be any electrons or a Milky Way Galaxy (or a universe) to ponder.


With all that being said, is the money and effort worth the effort? Of course it is. We may never time travel but we are going to make our best effort at unlocking the universe's secrets and apply them to our problems, one of which is time travel. Without those secrets being unlocked we will never be able to leave this rock and explore even our closest stellar neighbor.



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