Developing the Hawking's experiment

[seivtcho]

In the year of 2009 professor Stephen Hawking made an experiment to determine if future time travelers exist. For the purpose he wrote a message, inviting future time travelers to an exact place in an exact time. He supposed, that his message will survive, and in the distant future if the time travel becomes possible, the time travelers will read it, and someone from them will come on the place and time of his invitation. Unfortunately, no body came at that place and time. This led Stephen Hawking to the conclusion, that time travel is not possible.

 

 

While accepting the fact, that professor Stephen Hawking is a trusted and gifted scientist, I think, that exactly this experiment hasn't taken under consideration different factors, that is why I decided to do a similar experiment again, but taking under consideration some of the possible factors, that may lead to a false negative result.

 

In the such constructed experiment Hawking took for granted, that the time travel to the past will be possible to any time back. This, however may not be so. Traveling back in time may appear to be possible only in exact points in time, not in random ones. This is why, when he says an exact point in time, 12:00 UT 06/28/2009 as he did in his experiment, the time traveler may not be able to come exactly on this time, or this date, or even exactly this year. This is why I decided to give a wider range in time, in which I accept time travelers, in order to give them more time options for meeting together. Furthermore, the time traveling may be dangerous for a human being, and for this reason, the expected time traveler may not be human at all. Instead the thing, that may travel can be some sort of a machine, or even only an energy. This is why I am accepting not only human people, but also a machine, or some sort of energy (hologram, or some sort of sound energy maybe).

 

Here are the places and the times at which I accept time travelers:

 

From 10.10.2014 to 15.10.2014 from 13:33 to 13:36 on the address: Country: Bulgaria, town: Bourgas, living complex Slaveikov infrontof the entrance of the Slaveikov Sports Hall. I am male and will be walking a black dog.

 

Everyone, who wants may participate in the experiment by adding times and places to meet time traveler.[DOUBLEPOST=1412508708][/DOUBLEPOST]Are there any people, who would like to participate?

 

 

[PaulaJedi]

First, the time travelers could fear for their safety, wondering why there is a time traveler meeting to begin with. Is it a trap?

 

Second, most might not want to reveal themselves, knowing that Hawking would bring them publicity.

 

As for your experiment, I'm not so sure time travelers would take the time to show up for a stranger.... and all of this is assuming they can get to this exact timeline.

 

 

 

[seivtcho]

Alright, lets develop the experiment together. You write a timeline, where you can meet a time traveler. Why? Well, I want to see how may I also become a time traveler If they are afraid to come, they may send some sort of machine. It can be small - not human size...

 

 

[Gpa]

seivtcho;

 

You are missing the primary point of Hawking's experiment.

 

He did not publish the time of the meeting until "after" the time had passed. This would allow only those that could TT to attend. By announcing your dates now, I could show up on that date and claim to be a TT'er.

 

Paulajedi;

 

No government agencies knew of the planned meeting ahead of time so the travelers were safe from that.

 

Now, here is a possible explanation why Hawking's experiment didn't give proof of TT. This follows with my post in Paulajedi's other thread on divergence.

 

Two rules of TT that must be accepted.

 

1. Effect can not precede cause.

 

2. There is only "this" universe and "this" timeline that "we, in it" can travel within.

 

This may, in a sense, create it's own paradox.

 

Following rule 1:

 

"We" will not see the results of future TT until "after" it has begun.

 

Since, apparently, it has not occurred yet, we can not see, (be aware of), any changes in the timeline.

 

The first time, (yet in our future) that a TT'er does travel back and "make their existence known", from that point, "in the future", and forward, can we see the results. In another way; I am looking every day at a blank sheet of paper. I have made it clear to everyone that I want a TT'er to write "Hello" on this paper on Oct. 5th, 2014. You might think that the word Hello should magically appear some time today but it can not, with rule 1. Now, TT is developed on Nov. 1st, 2014. The TT'er goes back in time at noon on Nov 1st, 2014, to my requested date and writes hello on my paper. Any time "after" Nov. 1st, 2014 12:01 I will be able to see the word Hello. It will be on my paper since the "cause" has now occurred.

 

Following rule 2:

 

I will not "remember" the word appearing on Oct. 5th, 2014 or be aware that it was there after Oct. 5th, 2014 because the paper, and I, were on the same timeline. It can be seen on the paper and even have some form of undeniable time and date stamp on it when I see it after Nov. 1st but will only be apparent after it was done, "in my only real timeline".

 

So, no one showed up to Hawking's party...as reported in the NEWS...yet!

 

 

[PaulaJedi]

Some could have arrived at the party on a different timeline.

 

 

[Gpa]

Paulajedi;

 

See rule 2

 

I'm not asking you to agree to rule 1 or 2 but they validate my premise, if they are indeed correct.

 

 

[seivtcho]

seivtcho;You are missing the primary point of Hawking's experiment.

He did not publish the time of the meeting until "after" the time had passed. This would allow only those that could TT to attend. By announcing your dates now, I could show up on that date and claim to be a TT'er.

 

.....

Who told you, that I have only this experiment with the shared information about the time and the date? I am simply giving you stimulation and clues how to make a better experiment, by combining many people, and by thus giving more time and space options for the future time travelers to come.

 

 

[Ronnie ny]

Some could have arrived at the party on a different timeline.

Really stretching here, huh?

 

 

[seivtcho]

seivtcho;....

Two rules of TT that must be accepted.

 

1. Effect can not precede cause.

 

2. There is only "this" universe and "this" timeline that "we, in it" can travel within.

I didn't understand why 1. will make a paradox. In order to make a paradox, the time traveler will have to write down the "Hello" word in his time and it to become visible in our time. Then the paradox really will happen.

 

The time traveler, however will not write the "Hello" in his time. When you ask a time traveler to write the "Hello" it becomes the cause. After some time (some time after the cause has appeared) the time traveler comes and writes it, and thus making the effect. The cause is before the effect, no matter how you will calculate it.[DOUBLEPOST=1412524740,1412523810][/DOUBLEPOST]"I am looking every day at a blank sheet of paper. I have made it clear to everyone that I want a TT'er to write "Hello" on this paper on Oct. 5th, 2014. .... Now, TT is developed on Nov. 1st, 2014. The TT'er goes back in time at noon on Nov 1st, 2014, to my requested date and writes hello on my paper. Any time "after" Nov. 1st, 2014 12:01 I will be able to see the word Hello."

 

I think, that I got it. However, if the time traveler writes the "Hello" after Oct. 5th, 2014 the cause will not forward the effect.

 

 

[Gpa]

When you ask a time traveler to write the "Hello" it becomes the cause. After some time (some time after the cause has appeared) the time traveler comes and writes it, and thus making the effect. The cause is before the effect, no matter how you will calculate it.

"Asking" a TT'er to do something is "not" a cause. It is what leads up to the cause which is the physical action of going back in time and the physical action of "writing", which causes the word to appear on the paper, the "effect" of the action of, going back and writing.

 

It gets tricky. The action, writing in the past, is still occurring "in the future", after Nov. 1st, 2014 when the TT'er "was able" to go back.

 

 

[PaulaJedi]

You're going to hate me, but a time traveler isn't going to take the time and resources to sign your paper. He needs to travel to your location. He likely isn't going to care whether or not you believe him. If I were a time traveler, I wouldn't. Not trying to be mean, I'm just pointing out that your experiment doesn't prove or disprove time travel. *ducks behind a rock* It's the same with Hawking. What if they all say, "why bother?".

 

 

[Gpa]

Paulajedi;

 

I don't hate you. You have missed the point of my discussion though. It is a "scenario" based on a "premise". It is not offered as a factual or expected situation. It is offered "tongue in cheek". In reality, I do not believe a TT'er will invest the time, resources, or the "give a crap" for my scenario because I do not believe there ever will be a time traveler, as imagined by many, to the past or future. It is one of many thought experiments on the subject, nothing more.

 

 

[RainmanTime]

All the hopers and dreamers that there will exist time travelers continue to fall prey to the unscientific thinking that time is or can be decoupled from space. We know, from General Relativity (and the work of the likes of Minkowski and Penrose) that space and time are inseparable.

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Penrose_diagram.svg#mediaviewer/File:Penrose_diagram.svg

 

We further know from conservation laws that spacetime is also inseparably connected to mass through the integrated metric of energy. What this means is that if you desire to move through spacetime in any way other than the natural movement of spacetime shown on Penrose diagrams, the mass of any body must be significantly altered. Titor's explanation of how time travel is alleged to occur via dual "top spin" mini black holes has been shown to be scientifically unworkable many times. Darby has been the guy who has tried the hardest to open your eyes to this fact.

 

Spacetime has a "stiffness" which must be overcome if you are going to bend the asymptotically flat spacetime that we all live in. The human body is not designed to withstand the energies required to achieve this. Hence, little Johnny Titor would end up looking like something akin to vegemite were he to undergo the energy transformations necessary to warp spacetime.

 

Every time you romanticists talk about "time travel" you are seeking to propagate a fantasy which our science of this time has already branded as such. When you start learning about the things a Penrose diagram tells you about spacetime, and then you start dealing with travel through spacetime at any orientation other than the 45 degree "lightlike infinity", then perhaps you may come to understand why your fantasy really is a fantasy. It should be a clue to you that only when riding a light beam can time (and space) be transcended.

 

As you were, soldiers...

 

RMT

 

 

[seivtcho]

"Asking" a TT'er to do something is "not" a cause. .... the cause .... is the physical action of going back in time and the physical action of "writing", which causes the word to appear on the paper, the "effect" of the action of, going back and writing. It gets tricky. The action, writing in the past, is still occurring "in the future" ....

I didn't get it again. It seems, that I am very dumb.

 

Alright. Let the cause be the time traveler coming back in time, and the physical act of writing. The message is supposed to be the effect, right? The written message (the effect) appears again after the physical act of writing (the cause). It would be a paradox if the time traveler wrote the message in his time, and this message suddenly appears in the past.

 

"The action, writing in the past, is still occurring "in the future""

 

Do you mean that the written text may survive in the future? This is not a paradox. There are survived texts thousand years old.

 

Or do you mean that literary? If you mean it literary, then the writing took place in the past, not in the future. Only the time traveler came from the future.[DOUBLEPOST=1412579589,1412577551][/DOUBLEPOST]

 

..... if you desire to move through spacetime in any way other than the natural movement of spacetime shown on Penrose diagrams, the mass of any body must be significantly altered. Titor's explanation of how time travel is alleged to occur via dual "top spin" mini black holes has been shown to be scientifically unworkable many times. Darby has been the guy who has tried the hardest to open your eyes to this fact.

...

 

... Johnny Titor would end up looking like something akin to vegemite were he to undergo the energy transformations necessary to warp spacetime.

 

.....

 

.... When you start learning about the things a Penrose diagram tells you about spacetime, and then you start dealing with travel through spacetime at any orientation other than the 45 degree "lightlike infinity", then perhaps you may come to understand why your fantasy really is a fantasy. It should be a clue to you that only when riding a light beam can time (and space) be transcended. ....

So, in brief, the experiments are showing negative results, because they are correct - simply time ravel does not exist. Well, could be really that. Where someone can read more about the Minkowski and Penrose works?

 

 

[PaulaJedi]

Paulajedi;I don't hate you. You have missed the point of my discussion though. It is a "scenario" based on a "premise". It is not offered as a factual or expected situation. It is offered "tongue in cheek". In reality, I do not believe a TT'er will invest the time, resources, or the "give a crap" for my scenario because I do not believe there ever will be a time traveler, as imagined by many, to the past or future. It is one of many thought experiments on the subject, nothing more.

Oh, I thought you really wanted to do it.

 

I think I need

 

 

[seivtcho]

Today 06.October.2014 nobody came.... but the reason can be in me. I came in 13:35 and stayed one minute only.

 

So far experiment shows no results.

 

 

[seivtcho]

Today also no time traveler came.

 

By the way are others from this forum want to develop the experiment?

 

 

[Cosmo]

How are you supposing that your invitation will be read in the future when time machines are available?

 

 

[seivtcho]

Well... I was hoping to survive in electronic form either in this forum, or in the one, that I made recently ...

 

Do you have other suggestions?

 

 

[Cosmo]

Longevity-wise, a digital medium probably isn't one I would pick. I don't intend for this site to disappear, but who knows what'll happen. Maybe World War III comes and wipes a bunch of us out?

 

If my intent were to perpetuate a message across an unknown (but very long) span of time, something like the Georgia Guidestones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones) would be my first choice.

 

It's unlikely you have access to many tons of granite, but you get the idea - Make your message a physical object that's unlikely to be totally destroyed in the long-term.

 

 

[seivtcho]

Alright. It is true, that messages engraved in stones has survived for thousands of ears. It is the only proven method for sending information in the very far future. I may engrave messages on some stones in my spare time. It is easy and cheap. Stones on the ground are for free. Some people are even paying for stones to be removed from their gardens. Now it only remains the problem how to write so much information - the times, dates and places for the time travelers to come.

 

 

[seivtcho]

Today also no time travelers... I started to think already, that my experiment also will be with negative result.[DOUBLEPOST=1412857455][/DOUBLEPOST]Wait a moment!!! I wrote from 10.10!!!! My experiment actually starts from tomorrow !!! hahahaha

 

 

[Gpa]

seictcho;

 

Remember, this is a type of "thought premise" since we can not now, nor likely even in the future, travel back in time but we can imagine how it might work if we could. This is how I see it working.

 

A time traveler from the future goes back "in time" but HE still exists as "a future entity". Thus, his actions are being done as his future self even though he is acting "in" the past. Therefore, the actions can not appear, in his present, until he "actually" does the traveling "in the future" to the past, and since he was not "actually existing" in the past, his actions will not alter the time line since they only exist in "his" future of "his" present, after he returns.

 

Wow, even I got dizzy reading that. Does it help any?

 

 

[seivtcho]

The first real day in my experiment no one came.

 

seictcho;.... This is how I see it working.

A time traveler from the future goes back "in time" but HE still exists as "a future entity". Thus, his actions are being done as his future self even though he is acting "in" the past. Therefore, the actions can not appear, in his present, until he "actually" does the traveling "in the future" to the past, and since he was not "actually existing" in the past, his actions will not alter the time line since they only exist in "his" future of "his" present, after he returns.

 

Wow, even I got dizzy reading that. Does it help any?

What, what, what?

 

 

[Gpa]

To paraphrase Robert Frost: Time stands still for no man.

 

Time keeps moving forward... even for a time traveler to the past.

 

I tried to draw this out for you but I can't get it to format here so try to draw it out from this on a straight line.

 

A= noon on travel day... (mark on future side of line for travel back to B about 2/3 along line)

 

B= 1pm on arrival day (mark for arrival in past about 1/3 along line) { it takes an hour to TT back in time }

 

Ca= 7pm action completed in past ( mark at 7pm in past)

 

Cb= 7pm real time in future...TT'er's present (mark at 7pm in future)

 

D= Return to future 8pm (mark at 8pm in past)

 

E= return before 7pm (mark before 7pm on future line) ...TT'ers present action is not apparent as it hasn't happened yet.

 

F= return after 7pm ( mark after 7pm but before 8pm)... action is apparent but TT'er is "still" in his past.

 

G= return 9pm ...action is apparent... TT'er is in his present. (mark at 9pm on future line){ an hour to get "back to the future"} [hey, that would make a great title for a movie... or 2... maybe even 3]

 

Hope it can make more sense for you.