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JT: The RHIC fireball as a dual black hole?


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We argue that the fireball observed at RHIC is (the analog of) a dual black hole. In previous works, we have argued that the large $s$ behaviour of the total QCD cross section is due to production of dual black holes, and that in the QCD effective field theory it corresponds to a nonlinear soliton of the pion field. Now we argue that the RHIC fireball is this soliton. We calculate the soliton (black hole) temperature, and get $T=4a /\pi$, with $a$ a nonperturbative constant. For $a=1$, we get $175.76 MeV$, compared to the experimental value of the fireball ``freeze-out'' of about $176 MeV$. The observed $\eta/ s$ for the fireball is close to the dual value of $1/4\pi$. The ``Color Glass Condensate'' (CGC) state at the core of the fireball is the pion field soliton, dual to the interior of the black hole. The main interaction between particles in the CGC is a Coulomb potential, due to short range pion exchange, dual to gravitational interaction inside the black hole, deconfining quarks and gluons. Thus RHIC is in a certain sense a string theory testing machine, analyzing the formation and decay of dual black holes, and giving information about the black hole interior.

Does anyone know if this could be related to the dual micro singularities in Titor's machine?

The quoted text is in latex format and im not sure how to remove the formatting. The site also has a PDF that goes into great detail :





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Awwm no replies yet? I knew I shouldn't have put JT in the subject.


What does (or the analog of) mean specifically in the quoted text above?


If someone figures out a way to "capture and clean" a dual black hole, and also how to control it's mass by injecting elections, does this mean we can make a "Tipler" time machine??



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Analog is pertaining to analogue!


Analogue is something that bears an analogy to to something else!


An analogy is a correspondence in some respects between things otherwise dissimilar! A form of logical inference, or an instance of it, based on the assumption that if two things are known to be alike in some respects, then they must be alike in other respects! Analogous!


Analogous is something that is similiar or alike in a way that permits the drawing of an analogy!


Of a proportionate!




A relationship between things or parts of things with respect to comparative magnitude, quantity, or degree. A relationship between quantities such that if one varies then another varies in a manner dependent on the first; ratio! Harmonious relation. Dimensions;size. A relation of equality between two ratios. To adjust so that proper relations between parts are attained. To form with proportion! (a/b == c/d) Proportion is the desirable, correct, or perfect relationship of parts within a whole. Harmony generally means the smooth and flowing joining of details. Symmetry and balance both imply an arrangement of parts and details on either side of a median line. They differ, however, in that symmetry emphasizes duplicate or mirror-image arrangements of parts, while balance emphasizes dissimilar or opposing parts that offset each other to make a harmonious whole.


Proportional -- forming a relationship with other parts or quantities; being in proportion. Properly related in size or other measurable characteristics. Having a constant ratio. One of the quantites in a mathematical proportion!


Similiar to -- primodial black holes thought to exist in the first instance after the Big Bang!


A coulomb potential -- according to the paper!


Before the quark-gluon plamsa as given at the RIHC website!



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From the Paper:


In conclusion, we have seen that the observed RHIC fireball is just (the pion analog of)


a gravity dual black hole. We have seen that the unknown CGC (Color Glass Condensate) state at the middle of the fireball is the interior of the black hole, and particles inside it interact with a Newtonian potential. The horizon of the black hole is the limiting ('freeze-out') surface of the pion field soliton, which emits radiation at a temperature given by (if the nonperturbative constant a=1), very close to the experimental value of 176 MeV. Most likely there will be no singularity for this black hole.


Then RHIC is really a string theory testing machine, that analyzes the formation and


decay of dual black holes, and giving information about the black hole interior. Probing the formation and decay with external particles seems hard, but a priori not impossible. The same applies for the formation of bound states of the potential.


This seems impossible in perturbative QCD, hence the QGP picture was replaced by an unknown CGC picture, implying very strong interactions that absorb the transverse momentum.


Now we have a very simple picture of the CGC interaction. Any particles that are in the interaction region get caught in the formation of the black hole, and can only escape by being radiated away in a thermal manner. Thus 'jet quenching' is nothing other than the usual black hole 'information paradox', that information gets inside the black hole and only radiation gets out. That also means that it will probably be very hard, if not impossible to probe the interior of the fireball with extra energetic particles present close to the interaction region that enter the fireball. That would amount in the black hole picture to probing the interior of the black hole with other particles, and is clearly impossible. However, given that the formed black hole is small enough and its lifetime finite, it could be possible in principle, by the right combination of time and length scales, to probe the formation and decay phases of the black hole.


However, we should note now that we have done something not obviously right. We have extended the regime of validity of the Newtonian approximation to the interior of the black hole, where we have no justification for this approximation. But remember that this is not a usual black hole, as it corresponds to a KK type of gravity, with mass M1. Also, we are talking now about the interaction of two massive perturbations inside the black hole, and not about the background gravitational field. If the black hole is large enough, the interaction of the two masses should still be Newtonian. This is clearer in the dual picture where we have pion fields, and pion exchange should dominate the interactions between particles. Also note that usual black holes have singularities, but the black holes created in this collision most likely will not. Indeed, for one thing it would be hard to imagine the brane bending analog of the black hole singularity: it would be a pinch-like singularity that seems unphysical. Also, in the field theory, a pion field singularity seems very unlikely. It could also be the case that these black holes are created and decay quickly, and the singularity cannot form.


arXiv:hep-th/0501068 v1 10 Jan 2005






The RHIC fireball as a dual black hole


Horatiu Nastase


Brown University


Providence, RI, 02912, USA


It is only a basis on something they can go on for future analysis ----- an analog ---- something similiar.



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The link for the paper is at the first post. The only thing you need to read it is Adobe Acrobat Reader for the PDF format of the file.


That can be obtained usually by having a computer game, because the manual for the game was written in the PDF format on the CD, or by downloading a free copy at Adobe Acrobat for the Reader of their PDF files.


To make one though, and write anything in that PDF format, you would probably have to completly buy their Portable Document File (PDF) complete version.


Anyway my interpretation of it goes something in a comical vane like this:


It is similiar to a primodial black hole, but different, and should be similiar, and if we (the physicists and not me just typing as such one of many of those type of physicists) we might be able to create a Universe that should be somewhat similiar and have an intelligent life-form that may obtain funding easier to continue this line of work. But would it be this Universe, well, it should be similiar or something maybe, and perhaps, more work is needed to solve this riddle, and it must have something to do with -- String Theory!





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Hi Mem!


Thank you TimeNot_0, from what you are saying it sounds like they found something that closely resembles a black hole but they want to reproduce the experiment with Copper first before they announce that they have physical proof of string theory by creating dual black holes.



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No, I am not from the Lab.


To me again, it seems like some are taking the terms used as literal. Once again, this fireball that used whatever material was only similiar, and not really a black hole. The term is used (at least to me here typing) that only has a broad, very broad definition. For lack of a different term, they termed it as a black hole. Whatever it really is, they have termed the entire thing as a Color Glass Condensate! Like a fasimile, a likeness, but not really black as in a black hole, but has a Color to it, and appears like a kind of (again for lack of a better term) Glass Condensed Structure that only has properties similiar to something a black hole should be, but it is not a black hole (again they used a term for lack of a better term to describe it!)


At least that is the way that the paper appears to me!


I may have to also read the paper again, but then I really do have other things to do, and can only guess, not being associated with any of it, but just reading about it, and taking an somewhat educated guess at what they are discussing and describing.


a/b == c/d but only similiar but really not the same, but different than what they expected. And only continuing on with some endeavor with the smaller String Theory may give them a clue into how it happened and produced that fireball with that type of collision of a pion soliton!


I am guessing now without looking it up, that a soliton, is similiar to a type of 'solid' structure vs. a real Space structure.



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  • 1 month later...

BBC and New Scientist reporting on it now. And *AHEM*, it's a DUAL black hole.




A fireball created in a US particle accelerator has the characteristics of a black hole, a physicist has said.

It was generated at the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider (RHIC) in New York, US, which smashes beams of gold nuclei together at near light speeds.


Horatiu Nastase says his calculations show that the core of the fireball has a striking similarity to a black hole.



A FIREBALL created in a particle accelerator bears a striking similarity to a black hole. But don't panic: even if the controversial claim is true, it is not the sort of black hole that would cause Earth to disappear in a puff of radiation.

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