Would a TT from the F commune with a web site of T

[Germain]

If I claimed to be from a future time, or was in regular contact with time travellers, quite understanably, you would expect me to provide some kind of absolute proof. The proof I would provide would undoubtably have to be in the form of a prediction of a specific unforseen major event presently not yet transpired (albeit, all events to come have already occurred, as we are already aware).

 

The frutaion of my prediction would cause the authorities of today to instantly shut down this site and all members put to intense investigion.

 

So, how does one provide incontestable evidence of being a TT or of being on talkie terms with them, without this inevitable outcome (which would only serve to be an event that had to occur........ and had already occured before it actually did)?

 

Just passing through.

[MildSkeptic]

A TT from the F WOULD commune with a web site of T

 

Interesting post! I think that there are events that are both unpredictable enough and general enough that if one were to predict them accurately, we would have no choice but to believe the 'prophet' was somehow aware of the events before they happened, but that would not involve terror attacks, murders, war etc. and that would therefore go ignored by government agencies. In fact, if one DID predict a terror attack etc., I would expect nothing less than that the person was involved. One would have to make a prediction involving the preformance of numerous other people, so that the results are not under the control of one group or person (eg. the next twenty World Cup wins).

 

 

[pamela]

If I claimed to be from a future time, or was in regular contact with time travellers, quite understanably, you would expect me to provide some kind of absolute proof. The proof I would provide would undoubtably have to be in the form of a prediction of a specific unforseen major event presently not yet transpired (albeit, all events to come have already occurred, as we are already aware).

 

The frutaion of my prediction would cause the authorities of today to instantly shut down this site and all members put to intense investigion.

 

So, how does one provide incontestable evidence of being a TT or of being on talkie terms with them, without this inevitable outcome (which would only serve to be an event that had to occur........ and had already occured before it actually did)?

 

In reply to:

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Just passing through.

 

If you are going to predict something bad...

 

In my opinion you would have to predict something you could not cause.

 

Such as a natural disaster. Or something of a more positive event

 

that you could not be blamed for. I would keep all the events positive

 

such as a movie coming out, an invention, positive changes. etc.

 

You are right. if John Titor would have predicted 911 I, myself would

 

have been in a lot of trouble just for being close to him since the

 

gov. may not believe in timetravel he might get blamed for knowing about

 

the event ahead of time. So if you know anything like that for the sake of

 

those left in the timeline when you leave...don't reveal it.

 

The problem with predictions are the probability/possibility factor.

 

If you say an event should happen and it doesn't because your presence

 

changed something you would be seen as a liar since all timelines are

 

not the same. You could only predict what happened in your time line

 

and if you saw our timeline going in the same direction.

 

Perhaps you could share how timetravel works and see if it holds up

 

to current science. Or perhaps share pictures that are interesting.

 

My advice...stay away from all negative events you (or anyone you communicate

 

with) could be held accountable for. After all...not EVERYONE believes in time travel.

 

They would wonder how you knew those things and you would be in trouble.

 

I would say you came kind of late. John only got away with it because he came at the

 

right time. Before 911 when everything was not so monitored.

 

If things ever became serious you could always claim your making a movie on your story

 

to back investigative people off.

 

My advice..be careful. Judge whether it is worth it to put people in danger just to reveal

 

yourself. Ask yourself why you want to reveal yourself. See if it is worth the risk.

 

and take creative measures if needed. Have backup plans in place.

 

 

[Darby]

Germain,

 

The frutaion of my prediction would cause the authorities of today to instantly shut down this site and all members put to intense investigion.

Aside from the fact that that's the dodge (in one form or another) that virtually every would be "time traveler" uses - what evidence is there that this would actually be the case? A vanishing few people still insist, for example, that the "TTO/Titor" saga was real and that the government is watching us (or involved in disinformation) but to my knowledge this site is still up and running, Anomalies is still up and walking (crawling at times but still up) and I can asure you that no one has come a knocking at my door.

That being said, it isn't necessary for a time traveler to predict the end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it. If a time traveler really wanted to garner some trust a simple verbatim quote of an entire article from a major newspaper a week in advance would be a good starting point.

 

A member gives a task to the TT to quote verbatim, for instance, the first article in the left column of page 2 of the LA Times on some specific date.

 

Better yet (because, though its not probable, it is possible for the "TT" to have the proper contacts to get an article planted - especially if a hoaxer planned ahead and anticipated this task because its been posed before) ...

 

post from the sports page of the LA times. The scores of every Major League baseball game on a specific date, the winning and losing pitchers, the line scores for each game and who hit home runs in each game is a task that the "TT" couldn't possibly have sufficient juice to arrange.

 

Then some frank talk about the physics behind the gadget. The physics can be discussed without giving away the precise methodology.

 

Next to last, the "TT" has to communicate. "TT's" have a bad habit of writing a lot of words while saying nothing. They answer questions with questions, try to be cute but are basically non-responsive. If its "all hush-hush too dangerous to talk about, lives are at stake" then bringing up the subject at all is saying too much.

 

And finally the last task: No-no's:

 

Do Not Talk About John Titor. Hoax or not, the TT has to be original. Bringing Titor into the mix, after hearing such tales for six years is, nowadays, almost guaranteed to get people to put on their "Ignore the Fool" goggles.

 

Do Not Ramble on About "Multiple Universes", "Multiple Timelines", "Multiple Worldlines" unless the "TT" knows what those terms actually mean, can explain them and can logically fit them into the story rather than using them as dodges to "explain" why his/her predictions can't be verified, won't really occur "here" or the like. Using Internet psuedo-scientific terms to explain how time travel works is really rather silly if the person is a real TT.

 

 

[Germain]

Yes, it could and has undoubtably been used as a 'dodge'.

 

The John Titor you speak of is an interesting subject (I have read something of him), but why does all his info on the future mainly concern the USA? Is nothing happening anywhere else on this planet?

 

As for the government 'watching us', do you refer to the US government, or, as it is so described today, a 'New World Order' government? I suspect you may be alluding to the US one.

 

This site and others akin to it are still up and running, as no time traveller has ever produced the overwhelming evidence to support his or her or whatever claims.

 

I understand what you mean by giving tit bits of info on future sporting events and the like in order to 'garner some trust', but I did say in my post 'absolute proof' and 'incontestable evidence' would shut down any time travel internet site. I stand by this.

 

Even supplying 'verbatrim quotes' would, raise some attention, and questions would be asked.

 

So the rules here are; No John Titor, no multiple universes, timelines, worldlines unless the TT understands his onions ect ect?

 

OK, I will accept that.

 

But if a TT does understand all this and lots more, and provides incontestable evidence of his /her origins ect, this site or any other TT internet forum would be shut down.

 

I understand the annoyance this may, and obvioulsly does provoke, but that is how it is.

 

 

[RainmanTime]

Hello Germain... or can I simply call you "Saint"?

 

Yes, it could and has undoubtably been used as a 'dodge'.

(snip)

 

I understand the annoyance this may, and obvioulsly does provoke, but that is how it is.

So then you are just dodging the issue. Right then. So we are just supposed to trust you that you are a TTer or are in talkies with one? No proof necessary? Makes it awfully convenient for you to spew whatever YOUR view of the future is without any consequences (or considerations) for whether it is a future we choose to participate in.So... what is your mission and reason for coming here then? Let's get on about it...

N/I RMT

 

 

[Germain]

Hello Mr Darbyshire,

 

You may call me Saint, Count, or whatever you want.

 

Not dodging any issues, merely conveying the consequences of exposure of TT identification via

 

proof procuation.

 

Right then. So we are just supposed to trust you that you are a TTer or are in talkies with one? No proof necessary? Makes it awfully convenient for you to spew whatever YOUR view of the future is without any consequences (or considerations)for whether it is a future we choose to participate in.

Bons cieux! Such a tirade! Firstly Emmett, or perhaps dances with elks, I never stated that I was a time traveller or was in talkies with one. And then again, I never stated that I wasn't.

Secondly, whatever the future holds, you have no choice BUT to participate in it.

 

So what is your mission and reason for coming here then? Lets get on about it...

If I were a TT, I suppose I could say that my 'mission' was, in simple terms, to ensure that something occurs.

What am I doing here? Well, as I have already made clear, I'm just passing through.

 

 

[RainmanTime]

St. Germain,

 

Not dodging any issues, merely conveying the consequences of exposure of TT identification via proof procuation.

Well, let's just say that you cannot always claim this is the case. For instance, when it comes to "evidence of time travel" causing a clamp-down on that information, one could look at the case of the findings of Australian researcher Ronald Pegg. He has shown some pretty clear correlations in his work that would indicate TT is not only possible, but may have been used to shape our current timeline. And no one has "closed him down" or prevented his message from reaching folks.So the point is that one cannot assume that just because you say it is so, does not necessarily make it so.

New/Improved RMT, now unleaded!

 

 

[Germain]

If I were a TT, this is what I should say:

 

I can and will only reveal what I can.

 

'Timelines' are very complex. There can be only one timeline, and there can also be an infinity of timelines. Timelines are interchangeable, they can be bridged, and crossed. What cannot be altered in one timeline can be changed by duplication. There are specialists in duplication technology, as there are speacialists in all time fields.

 

If I said that a certain event would happen, it certainly would happen, as in this 'time' it would be imminent.

 

Thank you for your warnings about being careful, but it's OK, I have an 'eventron' fitted (a type of electronic chart of events), and a 'reverset' which would enable me to quit instantly, and be replaced by another or other certain specialists.

 

If 911 had been given away, all those (of the present day) who shared that knowledge would be in 'Awful Big Trouble'.

 

The easiest way to time travel is through the dream medium. Once you are in the state of dream travel, and you awaken from it, you will try and get back to it, and you will if you try hard enough. A new world will suddenly be revealed to you. But, in this place, you will feel like you have been there for many years. You will meet others, befriend them, even marry.......then you will awaken, and the whole thing will appear as a Very Strange Dream. The next Time and place you visit will be different. In dream time travel, you will see future events, but only as your mind interprets them. For instance, you may dream of a big red double-decker bus with wings which crashes to the ground in flames. Then you hear on 'The News' that a double-decker airbus has 'Crashed'.

 

If you can learn how to control your thoughts during dream time travel, you will see things more clearly.

 

I'm just passing through, and this is my third time.

 

What about the book?

 

Thanks PM

 

 

[pamela]

Yes. It is pretty obvious that if you really gave us proof our conversations would end.

 

So who says you have to give proof right away? Save it for later until we have talked

 

and gained some information from you. I know this well from talking to John actually.

 

Perhaps we can start simple and you can explain further the "eventron" corny name I must add.

 

And perhaps more info on the "reverset".

 

In your explaination of the dream travel is this how you time travel?

 

It sounds a little confusing to me. Perhaps you can clarify it.

 

Are you suggesting every time we wake up we wake up to a new world?

 

What book?

 

What does a duplication scientist do?

 

 

[RainmanTime]

So who says you have to give proof right away? Save it for later until we have talked

and gained some information from you. I know this well from talking to John actually.

This message brought to you by the number 7, the letters P & Q, and Group Titor's very own "Information Validator", Pamela M.But don't get me wrong... I am just as interested as anyone in seeing what St. Germain's schtick is while s/he is just passing through. I find entertainment in the funniest of places.

New/Improved RMT, now 50% more stuff!

 

 

[Darby]

Germain,

 

The John Titor you speak of is an interesting subject (I have read something of him), but why does all his info on the future mainly concern the USA? Is nothing happening anywhere else on this planet?

I suppose that you'd have to ask one of the "TT's" to answer the question about why is the US government the only one mentioned (in most cases) directly. I don't know that answer to that one. I suspect that because this is a US site might have something to do with it but that's just a guess.

 

As for the government 'watching us', do you refer to the US government, or, as it is so described today, a 'New World Order' government? I suspect you may be alluding to the US one.

I only allude to the US government by way of paraphrasing what the "TT's" would claim. Its not a necessary plank to the overall structure of the argument.

 

This site and others akin to it are still up and running, as no time traveller has ever produced the overwhelming evidence to support his or her or whatever claims

I understand what you mean by giving tit bits of info on future sporting events and the like in order to 'garner some trust', but I did say in my post 'absolute proof' and 'incontestable evidence' would shut down any time travel internet site. I stand by this.

Which brings us back to my first question. Why do you (and others) believe that to be the case? I understand that its just an opinion but there must be some underlying factual basis for it. Time travel isn't the only important scientific research that can have profound implications that is being discussed in public forums. So far I haven't seen any sites shut down or members hounded down anywhere. So, what is the factual basis for the assertion?

I'll give you an example why the "its too dangerous to mention too much" dodge is usually fallacious within the context of the time traveler's story.

 

John Titor said that this isn't his world - its an "alternate universe". He said that there are an infinite number of such universes - each of which is somewhat different that any other. But then he falls back, directly or through intermediaries posting for him, on the "its too danger ous for my family" story.

 

Why is it so dangerous to reveal information? If this isn't his original world, then the family here isn't his (which he admitted). And there are an infinite number of alternate John Titor families. Infinite is a tricky word. Given his own argument there were an infinite number of John Titor's who did tell all. According to his version of quantum mechanics it makes no difference what course he took or what decisions he made. Every time that he decided to withhold information an infinite set of John Titors didn't.

 

Even supplying 'verbatrim quotes' would, raise some attention, and questions would be asked.

Again, the same situation. In any case, its a time traveler. A post, a quick trip in time to view the fall-out, if any, some planning while "elsewhere". It was, afterall, the time traveler who initiated the scenario by posting at all.

That's one of the big downfalls of most TT stories. They might be interesting for a few minutes but when analyzed there seems to be no logical justification for posting in the first place. What's the point of saying, "Hey, look at me. I'm a time traveler", and then spending the next few days or weeks attempting to dodge questions?

 

So far, in my view, time travel as posed by Internet TT's seems like a pointless exercise in wasting tax payers' (or investors') money to play an online RPG.

 

A real TT would have a plan and a reason for posting - I don't imagine that the plan and reason would include game playing.

 

So the rules here are; No John Titor, no multiple universes, timelines, worldlines unless the TT understands his onions ect ect?

OK, I will accept that.

Not rules - just suggestions if the wouldbe TT wants to hold my (and many other people's) attention. As used on the Internet terms like "timeline" and "worldline" are nonsense. The same goes for "multiple universes" and "many worlds". The terms, if used by a physicist or someone closely associated with a physics project of the magnitude of time travel, have specific definitions, relationships and usages. The TT should at least give some indication that s/he didn't simply go to a few alt.sci sites and parrot some "jargon".

 

But if a TT does understand all this and lots more, and provides incontestable evidence of his /her origins ect, this site or any other TT internet forum would be shut down.

I understand the annoyance this may, and obvioulsly does provoke, but that is how it is.

I still don't see the justification for the "but that's how it is" conclusion . If you know that a site would be shut down then the TT would have a better POV than you. Again, this means that there's no point in posting in the first place other than a self important but empty of content "Look at me."

 

 

[Darby]

Germain,

 

Hello Mr Darbyshire,

You may call me Saint, Count, or whatever you want.

Huh?

I think that you're refering to Rainman's post, not mine.

 

 

[Darby]

Germain,

 

'Timelines' are very complex. There can be only one timeline, and there can also be an infinity of timelines.

This is the very Internet pseudo-scientific jargon that I was refering to.

A "timeline" is the "Y" coordinate (usually) on a spacetime diagram. It marks a change in time, delta-t. The "X" coordinate is the space coordinate and marks a change in location, delta-x (the other two space coordinates are usually left out because we can't draw a 4D diagram on paper.

 

A "worldline" is the trace of a particle (photon or other object) on a spacetime diagram. It shows its change in location in space with respect to time, i.e. ds = dx/dt. It represents an infinite series of spacetime "events" - a line interval.

 

These terms were coined by Minkowski. They come from one of the very earliest interpretations of general relativity. "Worldline" and "timeline" have nothing to do with alternate relaities, universes or the like.

 

 

[pamela]

Quote from Darby.

 

"Why is it so dangerous to reveal information? If this isn't his original world, then the family here isn't his (which he admitted). And there are an infinite number of alternate John Titor families. Infinite is a tricky word. Given his own argument there were an infinite number of John Titor's who did tell all. According to his version of quantum mechanics it makes no difference what course he took or what decisions he made. Every time that he decided to withhold information an infinite set of John Titors didn't."

 

Darby,

 

You are basically saying the people here don't matter because they exist on several other worlds.

 

Then you could equally say the same for all the other worlds you arrive on.

 

Then you are basically saying people have very little value on any world line.

 

I am glad John didn't think that way.

 

I am glad for my sake he did not get me in any kind of trouble because I am here in this world

 

even though he was leaving he had sense enough to know what he did may effect me or his family

 

here. Maybe you want to gamble with your life here but I don't. I am glad you are not a time traveler. You would have very little interest or care for the worldline you entered.

 

Even though another "you" was on it.

 

The thing you have to think about on other worldlines (or whatever you want to call them)

 

Is that not ANYTHING/EVERYTHING can happen. Only possibilities or probabilities.

 

Different series of events that involve changes from those events.

 

Pigs are not going to fly on another worldline.... unless perhaps they evolved wings in some kind

 

of far distant distorted worldline. But it obviously is not going to happen in close ones.

 

John may have been of the character where he NEVER would have put his family in danger under

 

any circumstance. It is possible if on another worldline he was not of such character he may

 

have not been a time traveler. One never knows.

 

 

[TimeNot_0]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no!

 

Exactly how does anyone think that the above sentence is not what it means, but may be an engine sound that repeats? There are 16 "no" up there, and that can be a rhythm. Earthlings, may some people also give me some money! Sure, some day, I may be able to program it.

 

If a Time-Traveller came here and gave us a message however how bad (Titor for instance), it was already decided that -- it is that person (the time-traveller) who must provide proof that he/she/spacealien is who they say that they are.

 

To lump humans into a category may be what is slotted when trying to find a job in the USA, and that may seem like a common occurance (ie. that some people are not different then what is perceived as the 'norm'). But that is unfact-able (is that a word, well just for this time it is, I guess).

 

It is those things that some people do not think of that is hard to do. (Especially in programming -- a program should be idiot proof -- for the most part -- or people have to change - - and finally learn something about the computer). Afterall, if people did not learn anything about such devices - it is my opinion that in the end -- the device could conceivably do weird things and no one would know the difference, because then it had been related back as "humans do not think". But we all know better than that, don't we now?

 

Now, obviously, some people are deciding again if I am saying something or not. However at this time, I have decided to not say anything, in order to have just people know that, it is I, yes I, who have attempted to also read this thread.

 

Master of Orion! In SpaceTime, there are many thoughts, and some people can pull some of those thoughts out of 'thin air'. For example, many years ago, there was still this same company creating speaker systems -- a lot of those musical speakers systems are used in recording studios. I have seen it drop from bigger type speakers to almost -- really small speakers (that they maintain will give you all the sound -- those musical speakers will not -- it is a law of physics, that to actually hear a low sound correctly at around 50 Hz -- yes a 10" or 12" speaker will play the sound -- but with distortion (there is a thing called - - acoustic engineering) so actually to get the sound --- really hi-fidelity -- you actually need an 18" musical speaker for that frequency.) Well, yes, new substances have been used to make musical speakers in those last 20 or so years, but still -- the fundamental laws of physics have not changed. Those people just do not create sound systems for the heck of it - like in a stadium or arena or even a musical hall such as Carnegies (sp).

 

Now, back to whether actually believe some other people and about what they may do about those people. Assumptions can be made, and that is all that can be done. It does not matter in the end, if the person comes and states with convincing those other people -- of that person's fact.

 

Now, let get this straight! (You say this, and we are questioning what you are saying or stating and that is all.)

 

Oh, the musical speakers -- well after reading a book and thinking about different items to surround the speaker with -- for sound quality -- make the cabinet out of wood like they do -- don't move it and make it out of -- bricks -- afterall, a person is just thinking about things and how the sound relates when it is all done. Well, a crude fiberglass basket was put behind the speaker -- from actually making it from items from the hobby shop -- it will never be as good as a company that manufacters such an item selling more than making one musical speaker set (a pair for stereo -- although 4 channel sound also was out at that time and talked about - way back then even). (Now it is 5 channel sound like in 5.1 whatever it is -- EAX or so on the computer.) Well, 2 years later -- JBL came out with musical cabinet speakers to sell -- that had a fiberglass acoustic basket behind the woofer (that is the speaker that needs it the most -- why to keep the speaker moving stiffly straight back and forth in the speaker cabinet -- and that helps identify and create the total sound of the bass -- not like nowadays - where a lot of people hear car's trunks rattle with such immensely sounding -- bad 10" speakers with too much wattage in a car -- shaking the vehicle -- which they state is -- good sound - because the bass annoys other people in the end with sound that is -- really actually bad -- according to acoustic engineers and Sound Engineering!

 

So if someone is going to state how other people may react to such situations and imply that they 'know' that supposed bit of information -- when it is contended that they really do not, ----------- then:

 

-------------

 

[Attention][Attention] all robot slaves controlled by time-travellers. This is an emergency. If you are unable to read this, please disregard this. Can someone tell me all they know about amps and voltage and Maxwell Equations? I left my physics book back in the time machine, and just because I control your mind, does not mean that I think that you are stupid.

 

JT - you know who!

 

-------------

 

Well, that is what it is about. If you claim something, then other people expect proof. When it is not given, then do not expect those people to actually be in a form that the person states that they are in -- they may or may not be in that form of reasoning anyway.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

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Sailing, sailing, Ov'r the Bounty Waves!

 

Like slipping through SpaceTime, I suppose.

 

:yum:

 

Oh, I forgot to include whatever this is:

 

The John Titor Story Song:

 

File uploaded and reachable from the following project:

 

http://www.savefile.com/projects/884518

 

If you want to link directly to the file:

 

http://www.savefile.com/files/6534819

 

[Download the file now]

 

sort of link down the page.

 

Other than that, if you really feel energetic try this:

 

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/masteroforion3/index.html

 

Afterall the game has been changed somewhat (from the Lead Designer, who also teaches 'game programming' in college -- in California -- where else). (Ah, he got fired after the game was taking 4 years to make -- and still was not finished -- now you can play it -- and never finish the game either) to make anyone "Master of Orion"!

 

Now, that is funny!

 

Otherwise, something newer is:

 

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationiv/index.html

 

or this:

 

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/galacticcivilizations2/index.html

 

or even this coming up next:

 

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationivwarlords/index.html

 

It is the Strategy used, I guess!

 

Currently, because of the SDK coming out for Civilziation IV, players are currently "pStreaming (pointers -- used to find addresses in memory) FAssertMsg (messages) into the FDataSteamIFaceBase (database) so that python and XML files can add to this --- Civilization!

 

Only if you need something to do, and may want to be driven -- "nuts" but not really -- by game players willing to add something to --- Civilization.!~!`!

 

Go ahead, don't need my permission to post anything here either.

 

And this is not an endorsement of advertisement for any particular product or direction of action in any future in this SpaceTime.

 

:yum:

 

What to add though, eh!

 

 

[Germain]

An interesting response.

 

But, a time traveller might want to vist 'Present Day' TT internet sites, because he/she can address issues with anominity.

 

How is physical TT accomplished? Worm holes? Black holes? White holes? Fater than light travel?

 

Electro magnetics/fields? Strings? Old Emile Drouet's Time Rocket? Dimension manipulation?

 

If I was to explain to you how time travel is performed (moving physical matter through 'TIME'), what would you do?

 

 

[RainmanTime]

Pamela,

 

I am glad John didn't think that way.

I am glad for my sake he did not get me in any kind of trouble because I am here in this world

 

even though he was leaving he had sense enough to know what he did may effect me or his family

 

here.

Your ability to invoke drama with the same, tired old schtick is really wearing out. Just how long do you intend to play your role?

The thing you have to think about on other worldlines (or whatever you want to call them)

Is that not ANYTHING/EVERYTHING can happen. Only possibilities or probabilities.

Your conclusion is incorrect as long as someone (John?) maintains there are "infinite worldlines".

Pigs are not going to fly on another worldline....

They most certainly will if there are "infinite worldlines".This is another reason your drama is getting so stale... you refuse to understand and/or accept just what sort of problems "infinite" brings along with the concept of worldlines. The fact of the matter is that as soon as your "hero" John floated the thought of "infinite worldlines" he took away any possibility you have for claiming that something (anything...pigs flying, anyone?) can NOT happen.

Infinite is infinite, sweetie. No way to argue that one!

 

New/Improved RMT, now completely TT hoax-free!

 

 

[pamela]

"An interesting response.

 

But, a time traveller might want to vist 'Present Day' TT internet sites, because he/she can address issues with anominity.

 

How is physical TT accomplished? Worm holes? Black holes? White holes? Fater than light travel?

 

Electro magnetics/fields? Strings? Old Emile Drouet's Time Rocket? Dimension manipulation?

 

If I was to explain to you how time travel is performed (moving physical matter through 'TIME'), what would you do? "

 

Well...Let's get real here. If it was blackhole or wormhole there is not much we CAN do.

 

It is not like any of us can actually MAKE one.

 

This is all you posted? I was expecting more. Atleast answering a few questions.

 

 

[Stonicus]

There are different sizes of infinity. You can have an infinite number of universe, yet still not have one where pigs fly. How many numbers are there? Infinite. How many even numbers are there? Infinite. Yet, the set of all even numbers is merely a subset of the set of all numbers.

 

As for proof of TT? You'd need to predict accurately events free from human intervention. Most notably events on the astronomical scale. Meteor strikes. Comets. Solar flares. Sun spots. Anything outside of the human sphere of influence.

 

 

[Darby]

Pamela,

 

You are basically saying the people here don't matter because they exist on several other worlds.

Then you could equally say the same for all the other worlds you arrive on.

 

Then you are basically saying people have very little value on any world line.

 

I am glad John didn't think that way.

But he did think that way. I was using his definition of QM. He didn't say that he and his copies "exist on several other worlds." He said they existed on an infinite number of worlds, i.e. his Hall of Mirrors allusion. He also said that every action plays out in an infinite set of alternate results. An infinite number of John Titor's told the entire story. An infinite number of Pamelas broke the promise not to tell. At least in Titor's view of QM that's the case (which is actually more a problem of his having read too many Internet alt.sci physics sites than being a valid interpretation of QM).

As to putting his family in danger, we've already discussed that issue.

 

If it was dangerous for his "not really" family he shouldn't have posted anything. He said that posting was not a part of his mission. He said that stopping off in 2000 was not a part of his mission. He said that he did that on his own without authorization. He purposely deviated from his mission profile for personal reasons. He compromised the mission - not us.

 

His mission was to go to 1975, pick up the computer and return it to 2036. His mission was not to stop off here, post away on the Internet, send private emails to you and generally leave electronic tracks that lead back to his family.

 

If his family was in any danger he put them there - not you, not me and not anyone else on any Internet site.

 

As we discussed many years ago, if he was a real TT then there would eventually be other TT's from factions opposed to his 1/5th regional government in his own time. You can't erase the evidence from your computer. Its there in the past. They can find it just as easily as any other opposition force who has access to time travel.

 

He wasn't thinking about danger to his family when he made private contact with you, when he chatted with any of the people that he alluded to in the IRC chat log or when he used a friend's email account to contact Art Bell.

 

You've said that you won't reveal his IP address's because that would be very dangerous for his family. You've assumed that you are the keeper, maybe the sole keeper, of this sensitive and dangerous information. However...

 

Art Bell has access to his IP's. Keith and Mary Rowland have access to his IP's. Many people at Premiere Radio have access to his IP's. Raul Burriel has access to his IP's.

 

They own or operate the sites that he posted on. Every time that he logged on the IP that he was using was logged. If he used multiple IP's then over time, multiple IP's were logged. Anyone who has a friend who works for AOL who is willing to do some (illegal) snooping can find out who owns the account associated with [email redacted].

 

The "its too dangerous" dodge is just that - a dodge. The IP information was never secure and the number of persons who have access to the information is not insignificant.

 

In fact, for a price, anyone can have legal access to his IP's. Its a very straight forward process. I know the price but I'm not willing to pay it. Its not all that expensive but I'm not all that curious.

 

The point is - if this was dangerous information and the Big Bad Enemy of John Titor US Government (present or future) was the villian they can purchase the information legally without resorting to the slightest bit of Big or Bad.

 

 

[Darby]

Stonicus,

 

As for proof of TT? You'd need to predict accurately events free from human intervention. Most notably events on the astronomical scale. Meteor strikes. Comets. Solar flares. Sun spots. Anything outside of the human sphere of influence.

I agree with you, in general, that these are valid "proofs". The problem with them is that they are somewhat subject to interpretation (data fitting) and they aren't generally events that occur on a daily basis. When this sort of proof is offered it usually boils down to "close" is close enough, i.e. - solar flare predicted for December 1st doesn't occur but one does occur on December 5th. Skeptics would say "no hit". Non-skeptics would say "Close enough for government work. Its a hit."

That's why I chose the baseball game results. Very specific information; precise schedule; not subject to interpretation; very precise date for the events to occur; very large pool of participants; very widely publicized; official records; several million witnesses; not easily manipulated.

 

Of course, it is theoretically possible for someone to manipulate all 32 teams, 32 managers, ~128 assistant coaches, 32 starting pitchers, ~60 relief pitchers, 256 starting position players, 16 DH's, ~50 assorted pinch hitters and defensive replacements and 64 umpires to get the desired result. But the probability of getting all of the ~630 people to perform exactly the right actions is vanishingly small.

 

 

[TimeNot_0]

Hey with the last patch the game actually works in Windows 2K:

 

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/imperiumgalactica2alliances/index.html?q=Imperium%20Galactica%20II

 

Why mention that?

 

Well, it was ahead of its time, I guess.

 

But, in the game, well, the only 'time' is by the dials of time churning around to make the game, as with most games -- a "Certain Amount of Time".

 

Now, speaking of time:

 

http://www.wired.com/news/wireservice/0,71298-0.html?tw=wn_index_9 Wired News: Human Family Tree: Shallow Roots

 

Yep!

 

I like to keep a few Favorites around:

 

http://www.serpo.org/ Oh, especially this one!

 

http://www.asu.edu/clas/iho/lucy.html Institute of Human Origins -- (now there is a phrase!)

 

Time!

 

Well, I guess some formulas would do, or something similiar!

 

:yum:

 

 

[Darby]

Germain,

 

An interesting response.

But, a time traveller might want to vist 'Present Day' TT internet sites, because he/she can address issues with anominity.

Anonimity from whom?

 

How is physical TT accomplished? Worm holes? Black holes? White holes? Fater than light travel?

Electro magnetics/fields? Strings? Old Emile Drouet's Time Rocket? Dimension manipulation?

Is there something other than "physical" time travel? Can you define what you mean here?

White holes? Do they even exist? What relationship do they have to time travel? What is a white hole?

 

Faster than light? I'm assuming that you mean FTL in a vacuum. High energy particles can travel FTL in a non-vacuum. But in a vacuum - no.

 

We won't be traveling FTL. We'll even have hugely difficult problems traveling at .6c. Accelerating to that velocity is an engineering problem - it can be done. Running into space dust will shower the occupants of the vessel with very high energy protons. Not a good thing for the health of the crew. Hitting space sand pebbles at that velocity will likely result in catastrophic hull failure. "Discovering" an otherwise undiscovered star that lies in the path of the vessel would be a "hot" topic for the crew.

 

Even high velocity STR time dilation time travel will be a very difficult engineering and ultimately, physics problem. There's a real universe "out there" that has real "stuff" in it that one doesn't want to run into at .6c.

 

If I was to explain to you how time travel is performed (moving physical matter through 'TIME'), what would you do?

Look very closely at your explanation and try to break it down. I'd want to see if it holds up to close scrutiny. That shouldn't bother you.

I'd also want to know why it was important to you to discuss the issue with us. Is it ego? What's in it for you? What's in it for us? Why aren't you discussing the subject on SPR or some other academic physics site where actual theoretical physicists post?

 

 

[Stonicus]

In Titor's case, he's already laid the framework to make his claims unfalsifiable. By his own admission, some baseball scores are different. This alone opens the possibility that anything he predicts that didn't happen is not proof of him as a hoax.

 

Let's say in his timeline, the New York Giants won the superbowl, but in ours, the Redskins did. However, his concept of divergence is too quaint for me. If the Giants win over the Redskins, the divergence would be ENOURMOUS! Instead of cheering and celebrating, you are now pouting and mad. You're gonna have sex with your wife that night, but delay you copulating with your wife by even a second due to celebration or sorrow over the game outcome and a different sperm reaches the egg and an entirely different child is born, if she gets pregnant at all. Imagine every single person you have ever encountered. If you're not born, the change would be drastic. You're now not in front of me at the store one day, so now I get my soda quicker and don't get stopped by the red light. My entire sequence of events is now altered, and now when I impregnate my wife, we don't have a daughter, we have a son. An outcome such as a ballgame is enourmous. The money that changes hands. The sale of shirts and caps of the winner now changes. The schedule of the football league is now different. Travel plans are altered. If John's line, the Giants play their first game at home. In ours, they play in Philadelphia. Just this diveregence alters who even attends the game, and for those die-hard fans, determins if they can watch the game in their home town or have to fly or drive a great distance.

 

For John's claims to be true, even ballscores must be the same. The only valid differences I can phathom to maintain any kind of continuity would be unnnoticable things. A grain of sand in a different place. A piece of dust in the air. The orbit of a comet around a sun in a distant galaxy.

 

The inability to prove or disprove a time traveler's claim is built into the "infinite worldlines" theory.

 

So to ever have proof of time travel, you would have to physically experience it, or "infinite worldines" would have to not be the case.