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God -- Theories that effect our existence and scientific processes


KerrTexas
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That makes no sense at all. Please read what you've written and ask yourself if there is any indication whatsoever that something like that could ever happen. Besides, you are contradicting yourself in this paragraph. First you say that I'm referring back to my past experience, next you claim that it's pure faith!

I am using nothing more than your very own criteria in that "proof" is only that which you can perceive as truth via your senses. Unfortunately for you, I have taken this theory of proof to a very logical extreme. What I have said makes perfect sense from this standpoint. Just because you experienced something as true in the past is not a guarantee that it remains true when you are not experiencing it. We are not talking about probability that such a thing could happen. We are talking about the technical aspect of perception-based proof, versus intuition-based faith. Just because you have never seen something wild like this happen does not mean the Langoliers are not always outside your perception, doing their thing. :) But really, I am not joking. Your intuition is an element of faith that you utilize. You have faith that your senses have, in the past, accurately described to you what was really going on. Even trollface's friend Derren Brown proves that this is not always reliable...and that his subjects are using faith to arrive at a personal view of truth. The fact that your truths seem more reasonable than someone's elses is technically irrelevant. What you are relying on cannot be called proof. It is nothing more than intuition.

 

Tell me, do you think there's proof for anything? Do you think there are things that can be proven, or is everything just a big illusion?

Godel has shown us that there are clearly many things that cannot be proven. Others have established "proof" of some phenomenon that the entire world accepted as true...only to be shown that this "proof" did not stand when new evidence was uncovered. Still others (magicians) make a living out of trying to make you believe something you perceived really did occur, when in actuality it was just an illusion. These three facts form a reasonable basis for my view that "even if my senses perceive it, and it seems real to me, there is still a possibility that everything is a big illusion." Indeed, I think you know this is a basis of my Massive SpaceTime model. The elements we perceive as distinct units of Mass, distinct areas of Space, and distinct sequences of Time are illusory in our perception of them as distinct. I maintain that their "true" state is when they are totally integrated. So under these conditions, yes I would have no problem believing that the things we perceive in our limited states are all illusions.In fact, I know it is so. I am an eternal being, as are you. You have simply not yet achieved this level of integration, for it requires willing dissolution of the self as separate from the rest of the universe. But you can, if you wish.

 

but the things you have just described have nothing to do with faith.

I understand that you do not think so. But they actually do.RMT

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges

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Re: Godess?

 

I admit that in this case I was a bit overconfident. Perhaps you could be so kind to explain why the Quabalah does not comply to the definition of a religion?

I would rather see your factual proof for why it is indisputable. :) But I will let you off the hook on this one (but will resurrect something else you did not address further down). I will now attempt to explain:

First, I would not debate that SOME people down through history have, indeed, "religionized" the precepts of Qabalah. By this, I mean they have morphed its knowledge into statements of "this is how you must do things, and what you must believe, to worship and partake of God." However, just because they used the knowledge of Qabalah and created a religion from it, does not mean that Qabalah IS a religion.

 

Qabalah is a compendium of knowledge. This knowledge can be used for many things, completely independent of whether or not you even believe in God. In fact, many people do use it for "black magick". Others simply use it to understand the structure of our universe. It is very similar to a universal encyclopedia, except it is much more compact, concise, and coherent. How you apply it is totally up to you, the individual. In fact, some believe it a "sin" for people to tell you that "this is how you must apply it".

 

This is why the Qabalistic-based knowledge that I share here, and on my website, are simply my observations of how the Tree Of Life (the central glyph of Qabalah) aligns and overlays with many aspects of life as we know it. You are free to ignore it, debate it, or refuse to accept it. I am not going to tell you that you are going to hell by not accepting it. But what I am telling you, from my own experience, is that if you start to look into it, of your own means and ways, that you might, indeed, find some personal uses for it that will astound you. In essence, you can and should "prove it to yourself"....don't just take my word for it (and I know you don't).

 

For example: The TOL is a systematic architecture diagram that overlays and describes the three primary "centers" of the human body: Cognitive, Locomotive/Respirative, and Reproductive. MANY people down thru history have accepted this knowledge, and applied it to how they balance these three centers of their body. OvrLrdLegion mentioned some of these people by name in the other thread. As it turns out, these people were highly effective humans... they achieved a great deal, and they did so by striking a healthy balance between these areas of their physical bodies...and their non-physical mind/soul/spirit.

 

Now...I would really like to hear your thoughts on this stuff that I had asked you earlier. I don't want to accuse you of purposefully avoiding it....at least not yet. :)

 

So let's not jump directly to God just yet. Let's stick closer to the point of my link. Would you see this data as statistically significant "proof" that human beings can be, and are, connected to each other in non-physical ways? Ways that cannot be positively detected by our limited senses? If so (and again, I find this data hard to argue with), then we are approaching some "factual proof" that humans may, indeed, have a non-physical soul and spirit that are capable of interacting with each other on exo-physical levels.

What do you think? G'nite! (I promise...I am not just pissing in the wind here!) ;)

RMT

 

 

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges

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I find your signature line quote extremely relevant to this discussion, and another I have been monitoring in the "triplicate" thread. It seems some could benefit from ceasing their arguments of evidence, at least long enough to see what is happening around us. This may transform them from only being swept along in life, to active creators of our mutual "solution set".

 

 

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What I have said makes perfect sense from this standpoint. Just because you experienced something as true in the past is not a guarantee that it remains true when you are not experiencing it.

In which case you can proof it again, by going outside. Furthermore, I'm not saying that physical proof is the only kind of proof, but in my opinion it is the most reliable. Your reasoning only makes sense for people who suffer from accute amnesia. I know the outside exists, even though I'm inside because I have already confirmed its existence. There's no indication that the outside will be gone the next time I walk out the door. To me, the proof is valid until someone claims otherwise. When someone tells me that the outside is eaten by monsters, I'll just take him outside to proof that its still there. It's that simple!

 

Others have established "proof" of some phenomenon that the entire world accepted as true...only to be shown that this "proof" did not stand when new evidence was uncovered.

Aha... I tend to agree with you here. Of course proof is subject to change. Once you proof something, that doesn't mean you have to stop thinking (as opposed to pure faith, where people just stop thinking and accept something as the truth). Some things are difficult or impossible to prove. For instance, there is no way I can proof that I will still be alive tomorrow. I'll have to rely on faith in that case.

 

These three facts form a reasonable basis for my view that "even if my senses perceive it, and it seems real to me, there is still a possibility that everything is a big illusion."

Yes. Again I agree with you... a little. There IS a possibility. And as long as you don't declare it as the truth, I'll be happy to discuss this possibility.

 

In fact, I know it is so. I am an eternal being, as are you.

Until proven otherwise I do NOT believe I am an eternal being. I did not exist before 18 march 1977 and I'll stop existing once I die. So you might have another view, but that doesn't mean you can declare it as the truth.

 

You have simply not yet achieved this level of integration, for it requires willing dissolution of the self as separate from the rest of the universe. But you can, if you wish.

This is about as arrogant as it gets. You might be more knowledgeable in a lot fields, but in this case your view on the subject is as good as mine. If you want to convince me, you'll have to take another approach. This is just the standard reply I get from religious people.

Okay, now I'm on my way to get a beer.. I'm getting thirsty from all this typing ;)

 

Roel

 

 

Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum

 

 

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Re: Godess?

 

I'm not too proud to admit that perhaps I was a bit overconfident. However after reading your reply, I still have the feeling that Quabalah is a form of religion. But since I'm not knowledgeable in this field, I'll take your word for it until I find proof :) In other words: I have faith in you.

 

Now...I would really like to hear your thoughts on this stuff that I had asked you earlier. I don't want to accuse you of purposefully avoiding it....at least not yet.

Okay I will. Can you point me to the stuff you are referring to?

Thanks, Roel

 

 

Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum

 

 

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Rho asked>creedo -care to elaborate?

 

Angelophany?

 

Creedo answers:I was in a key position to understand the situation as it fell on Earthbased mankind.This was a few years back, when the U.S. had started to enter the overpopulation warning areas, as described by author Alvin Toffelare, as said in his book, Future Shock.

 

These sentiments also were echoed by a key psycho-behaviourist, Paul Goodman, as relayed in both book and magazine interviews, concerning the projected terrible mental breakdowns of the 80s, 90s and two thousands.

 

Goodman predicted psycho-pharmical treatments for the masses, as accented by lack of natural effecting biological controls, due to overpopulation impending on these controls.

 

So Goodman predicted not only the era of mental breakdowns to come, however also the methods of treatments, which of course are the antidepressants, that are on the market now.

 

I am extremely well versed in biblical theory, even though it may not seem like it.

 

I knew instinctively that there was both a God figure and Angels, but did not know earlier on, how to verbalize these feelings.

 

I had found the Betty Andreasson Luca series of books, dealing with the Elders which are an Angelic subhelper order, just under Angels.

 

I knew as Angels had to be out of time, just as God was, that there would be dire communications problems between Angles and mankind, if the opportunity for them to discuss certain topics should arise.

 

To God and the Angels mankind is kind-of alike a product, that they from time to time add into, however because of the time-lag, there is a lack of certain understandings of certain concepts and for both parties, why these concepts can not work.

 

I was very, very, fortunate to have encountered a Mr. Eddie Sosa, who was an implanted Elders contact, just as Betty Andreasson Luca was.

 

Through Eddie I spoke and tried to communicate with the Elders and in some part, was successful.

 

I had desperately tried to tell them through Eddie, that because Earthbased mankind was reaching a certain population and developmental point, that without fail, he must be able to be allowed to associate in his free will, with other beings, that might be offworld, in their natures?

 

Because of their job description,. which is sometimes placing souls in bodies, they could not grasp certain concepts, such as letting Earthbased man go to the stars.

 

I knew that by the mistakes they had made, the wrong man abduction fail sequence. That there were not only problems within this society, but within the working orders of the God Angelic hierarchies themselves.

 

This is a very serious matter and someone who has to be remarkably gifted, can only discuss these matters with the Elders.

 

You have to be able to unilaterally be able to think twenty years in the past, almost the same time you think both in the now and twenty years ahead.

 

This was not easy.

 

Using Eddie as a phone interpriter to the Elders, had to be one of the most remarkable events ever in my life.

 

I was thrilled to have been able to do this and they were right about many things only they could have known of me.

 

What you have to understand Rho, is that the schooling of any species on any world, where their group is involved is booth an awesome event, as well as a cherished right.

 

Mankind in how he is put together, is an extremely complex affair and this process is defiantly not to be taken lightly.

 

The only thing that I can compare this process to, is the making of a very expensive guitar, or Stradivarius Violin.

 

All the components must not only be crafted with remarkable precision, but the assembly must be done with the utmost care.

 

I am left with one enigma and this is the Pleiadeans in one telling within Wendelle C. Steven's book, UFO Contact From The Pleiades.

 

In this book, a woman of Pleadian extraction appears in the Shanty-towns near the Ganges River. This area is frequented by Prostitutes who can not live anywhere else.

 

This Pleiadean woman had appeared there and commenced to hand out white pill tablets, which were found to totally eradicate all traces of syphilis, which is inherent in the children of prostitutes there.

 

The police tried to apprehend her and when they had her boxed into an ally, she disappeared, as if into thin air.

 

This bringes a kind thought, as the Pleiadeans are also in on this process, as farmers of humans, even though they have infracted in certain areas themselves.

 

I would have liked to see the expression on the face of the lab technician, after he drew blood from these children that nobody wanted in this area of India.

 

He must have been dumbfounded, as what was probably going through his head, was the thought, "How on Earth did they do this and by what process of magic that the gods would be so kind, to children that nobody apparently cares about"?

 

It's the grand process of things, Rho.

 

Sometimes when you least expect it, it reaches accross the distance, grabs hold of you and shakes you to your very foundation of convictions and beliefs.

 

Earthbased mankind, as well as all that composes man elsewhere in the universe, must be very special to the creators?

 

It must be this way to them, or they would have never bothered with the process of creation to begin with.

 

 

Creedo 299

 

 

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Again, may I digress on the word 'atheist' and why an atheist should be an agnostic. An atheist is an unbelieving individual; one who believes that there is no deity. Believing is one thing, but proof is another. What certain factual, scientific proof in the world says that there is really no God? Certainly, there is a possibility as it has not been proven. Hence, otherwise, there should be no 'atheists' but only agnostic; a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. Because there is simply no proof. Well you could say its unfair that people who do HAVE religions believe there is a God and 'atheists' ask, where is the proof? Well, I'm a believer but where is the proof? I don't need proof to tell me there's a God. Again, when the Bible had been written, Man had reached the Age of Reason. The Age that man grasp the concept of God. Civilisation wasn't that much chaotic, it had wars, but progressed. It was Man knew reason and more popped up; religion and philosophy. Until now we are still reasoning, except it has gone all awry. Cults and 'new faiths' and things like that, again we try to reason but we fail. Demanding proof seems like a cold, hard way to get answers. So I wonder, if man do not even understand himself, then does it make sense to have proof of a God, or does that man need God to show himself. But then again, a skeptic would think; bah, figments of imagination. We are rather enclosed in this 20th and 21st century. Skepticism lives, but now as we progress, movements like uniting the earth exist. I would not see why, Roel, that you should seek answers from these people who believe we should unite the world and believe we are one Universal Mind, Consciousness, whatever instead, have a good laugh from them. You would see why the concept of a Judeo God makes more sense than the New Age faith. Ask them, what proof do they have of a Universal mind, and you will get hilarious answers. I'm open to skepticism, especially with the oncoming Consciousness issues, which gives me many a good laugh. Has Man grown more intelligent, but at the same time, backward? I can barely understand God, but I have faith? I do not know why I have faith? But I just do. I do not need factual proof. You would question me, why do I not need proof? You ask me? I don't know. Lol. :) I'm just happy like that.

 

 

Wit is the subject of insolence

 

 

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Re: Godess?

 

I will address your comments at a later date. I currently work in the retail trade and get plain worn out. To think I was bored with selling new homes and sought something more exciting. I got it and then some. We have a customer count of over 2,000 a day.

 

You know it wouldnt cause you alot of pain to read the texts relating to the Kabbalah. Just ignore or skip the parts that mention God and insert your own word(s).

 

I really don't care if you believe in God or not. God will make himself known when He feels it is time for him to do so ( to you ). I am a firm believer that people will find their spirituality when they are ready, and not before.

 

The only reason why I ended up in this debate regarding God was because when mentioning a principle extracted from the texts, it was dismissed as religion and therefore null and void. This irked me to no end, and as stated previously, just because the author placed the information within a religious context does not invalidate that data.

 

Trollface made a point regarding the definition of light, and provided some sources. I will not dispute what he stated until I have thoroughly read what he has offerred to support his claims. I owe him that much out of respect for his presentation.

 

 

" While my book Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea is entirely a work of imagination, my conviction is that all I said in it will come to pass. " ~ Jules Verne

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Re: Godess?

 

Funny. I never pointed at anyone who was spreading the New Age. Not like I could stop anyone or what. Neither do I want to involve myself in pointless arguements. It's strange how when you pour out what's in your mind and people refute it. It was just food for thought, really, not pin-pointing at anyone or anything. I apologise if you have mistaken my posts for directly saying that you and Rainman are spreading the New Age faith.

 

 

Wit is the subject of insolence

 

 

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Re: Godess?

 

I would not see why, Roel, that you should seek answers from these people who believe we should unite the world and believe we are one Universal Mind, Consciousness, whatever instead, have a good laugh from them.

I wasn't sure if you were directing this towards us or not, and just wanted clarification. I do ponder all forms of thought with some humor, but don't laugh at anyone's idea of creation.

It kind of points out how there is a vast group of "lost" souls so to speak. The churches of the modern world are leaving alot of people with an internal void. I myself was one of those, not accepting what the priests were claiming God to be. I felt there had to be more, and probed many faiths to eventually build my own.

 

As our journey in life is an individual one, we create our own individual concept of God based on our experience of the Almighty. Roel, has his own concept of God, being that God doesn't exist, and for his individual path in his journey through life, he just hasn't experienced anything proving God exists.

 

I dont believe I have read anywhere that Roel is absolutely oppossed to God's existence, but merely desires absolute proof of it being so.

 

Neither do I want to involve myself in pointless arguements

There are no pointless arguements. Any debate has it's value. Whether there is a final shift of one's concepts or not, the mere practice of debating provides for more skill as our errors are brought to light. It is a learning experience. Also many sources that are presented during the debates are very interesting reading, and wouldn't have been offered excepting for a "pointless" debate. i.e....the websites posted by Trollface have been very interesting and if Rainmman had not grappled with Trollface, the websites would still be shrouded in obscurity.

" While my book Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea is entirely a work of imagination, my conviction is that all I said in it will come to pass. " ~ Jules Verne

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Re: Godess?

 

I am too, a lost christian. I'm now seeking a church that actually advocates the true meaning of christianity. I have my own views, but the reason that I have atteneded several churches does not amuse me. It has been taken so literally and people end up going to church for the sake of it. I do not like to criticise people. I like viewing new ideas, but it's just that some are nice to laugh at some times. It depends. In this modern world, what people are seeking now is their inner self. But frankly, I think this New Age movement advocates the wrong kind of teaching. Whatever it is, people have their own views and I do not criticise them for that. It is their freewill and choice. I'm just saying we should stay on the right path and yet expose yourself to new ideas and views at the same time.

 

Debates are fun, but there are times where debates go out of hand, out of point, which spoils the whole experience of learning. I love learning like any of you here.

 

 

Wit is the subject of insolence

 

 

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Mmmh, your post reminds me of some documentary I saw the other day. There was this guy saying a prayer and at some point he said "Please protect us from the non-believers". Now I thought that was pretty ironic, since I was under the impression that it was me who should be protected from fundementalist believers :)

 

You would see why the concept of a Judeo God makes more sense than the New Age faith.

No. In fact, to me, the Judeo-Christian god makes even less sense than any other concept.

And another thing, do you, or don't you understand the concept of God?

 

"The Age that man grasp the concept of God."

 

"I can barely understand God, but I have faith?"

 

Lol. I'm just happy like that.

That's the most important thing in life. I feel exactly the seem way! :)

Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum

 

 

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Re: Godess?

 

I dont believe I have read anywhere that Roel is absolutely oppossed to God's existence, but merely desires absolute proof of it being so.

Very well put. Although I have a very strong opinion on this subject, I think everyone should have respect for eachothers believes. I'm well aware that my opinion is just as good as yours. I can't proof that god doesn't exist and like you said, I need some kind of proof to convince me that he does.

Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum

 

 

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Re: Godess?

 

However after reading your reply, I still have the feeling that Quabalah is a form of religion.

A body of knowledge that one can use for creation does not necessarily imply a religion. As I said, some have "religionized" it, but using and applying Qabalah to understand the world around you and affect changes in it does not require you to believe in a supernatural power. Actually, it is often the case that the study and application of Qabalah is what will lead someone to such a belief on their own. I think this is what OvrLrdLegion might be referring to, and it is certainly what happened in my situation. I left the Catholic Church because of its contradictions and "laws" that did not match the teachings of Jesus. After this is when I discovered Qabalah and studied it solely because I was very interested in AI, and one can hardly ignore the fact that the TOL looks like a very well ordered neural network. It was only several years into my research (I think it was around 1985 or so) that I finally came to understand that what Christ taught was based on Qabalah, and this is what got me on the path to spiritual enlightenment, and a belief in a form of God that is much different from what most world religions describe. So I USE Qabalah as a tool for my own personal spiritual enlightenment.
Okay I will. Can you point me to the stuff you are referring to?

Roel! I already did! Why do both you and trollface do this? All you need to do is scroll back in the conversation and find the link I gave you to the Global Consciousness Project. Then, after you review it, could you please answer the questions I posted twice?RMT

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges

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Your reasoning only makes sense for people who suffer from accute amnesia. ... When someone tells me that the outside is eaten by monsters, I'll just take him outside to proof that its still there. It's that simple!

No, the reasoning is based upon the fact that both your senses and your memory do not perfectly (nor accurately, as some would claim) transcribe reality, nor how reality can change. You only perceive discrete moments, discretes masses, and discrete spaces, and you only perceive them in a very narrow frequency band. Again, I do not mean to sound condescending, but there is a LOT more going on in the "space" that you perceive as empty. And the ability to emply and interact with all those other things going on will come to have a drastic impact on how we perceive the world around us and how it changes. It will, quite literally, shake the foundations of how people see the normally stable world around them.
This is about as arrogant as it gets. You might be more knowledgeable in a lot fields, but in this case your view on the subject is as good as mine.

I'm sorry if it offends you, and I am sorry you think it is arrogant. But what I am not sorry about is the fact that I have learned things that you do not appear to want to look into, and I have had experiences as a result of learning these things that are far beyond the "normal" perception that you use as your primary basis of proof.What I am about to say IS truth. The fact that you do not accept it does not change this basic truth. Spiritual enlightenment is a personal, inward path. I guarantee you will never find your "proof" unless YOU, personally, go searching for it. Therefore, I can say it is just as arrogant of you to sit in denial and say "you have to show me before I believe it." The arrogance comes from your thinking that someone owes you the proof of a larger reality and a higher being that encompasses that reality. It may seem like a trite saying, but this is also true: God helps those who help themselves. It means you must seek out and find your own proof for things beyond your simple views of existence.

This is why Qabalah should not be "preached" as a religion, but rather offered as the body of knowledge that it is. It is a tool that each person should use to unveil the larger world, and there is no set "formula". Observations, connections, and relationships of others who have used Qabalah can be useful in one figuring out how it applies to their own lives. But simply thinking that someone else's "formula" for Qabalah is all you need to follow (like a recipe) is no better than thinking that saying 10 Our Fathers is going to cause God to bring you that new Jaguar you want.

 

RMT

 

 

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges

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Why discuss an issue that has no right or wrong awnser?

Well, perhaps because mankind has done so consistently down through the ages, and such discussions have lead to useful exchange of ideas and opinions that further our knowledge... and sometimes lead to discoveries that will define the boundaries of right and wrong.RMT

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges

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Again, when the Bible had been written, Man had reached the Age of Reason.

The Bible is clearly an edited volume, both Old and New Testaments. This implies that there were writings which were excluded from the Bible. Isn't it interesting that the Qabalah was known as a verbal tradition well before the time of Christ, and yet it appears NOWHERE in the final edited Bible? One can make a case that some of the writings that were left out of the Christian contemporary Bible were left out because they did not fit the goals of the authors.Ever hear of the Book of Enoch and the Book of Thomas? Enochian literature was quite popular with the Essenes of Qumran. And there are some that say writings such as The Keys of Enoch are "new age". Yet they stem from writings that predate the era of Christ.

Some say that "New Age" is nothing new, but rather an uncovering of knowledge that is very old. And the more that scientific discoveries align with ancient ideas the more we might see that the "answers" have been in front of us all along. Here's one example:

 

Plasma -> Fire

 

Gas -> Air

 

Liquid -> Water

 

Solid -> Earth

 

The four ancient elements certainly have a parallel with the four forms of matter.

 

RMT

 

 

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges

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As a point of interest, the Etheopian Christian Bibles still contains the Book of Enoch. In reference to building my own path, I spent alot of time without structure in my pursuit of enlightened awareness. As an anology, it was as though wandering on a vast plain without any landmarks. I couldn't tell where I had been nor where I was going.

 

I searched many different "faiths" and didnt really find any that satisfied my questions or needs of spirit. Through joining Builders of the Adytum, I found a system that parelleled my own goals.

 

I still dismiss those components that don't "feel" right and infuse other concepts into my path.

 

The TOL provided the needed structure as far as mapping out a path to actually travel, knowing from where I started, to where I am going. I believe most faiths have valueable information, since I believe god has no limitations and uses many methods to communicate to all different types of peoples through-out the world.

 

 

" While my book Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea is entirely a work of imagination, my conviction is that all I said in it will come to pass. " ~ Jules Verne

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