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Re: Terry, the Pope

 

Well time not perhaps you have been hard on noeone but yourself being that I was watching Cnn on friday and it was 4pm est(eastern standard time for you retards) and it was 9pm italy time. So on sat it was April 3 2005 at 7pm here when the pope died but 12am when the pope died in italy on APRIL 4 2005 when he died. enjoy your bickering while it lasts

 

 

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You predicted the date the pope dies. The pope dies more or less on that date. So some people are convinced that you are a TT.

 

I don't Trust you Zeshua. I'll tell the reasons:

 

In a previous thread, you were begging everyone to read your post from 2026.

 

http://www.timetravelinstitute.com/ttiforum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ttclaims&Number=30884&Forum=All_Forums&Words=Zeshua&Match=Username&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=30884&Search=true#Post30884

 

So if you are real and you knew the date the pope dies, then you would have written:

 

'The pope dies on April 3rd. So trust me I'm a TT'

 

But you have just given some information about what would happen if the pope dies and just put a date below it. BECAUSE you were NOT sure whether the Pope would die on that date or not. You took the safe path.

 

Can you predict any other event in the near FUTURE? Can you tell us who the next Pope is? May be you can, from the prophecies.

 

'In 1994, members of the Italian National Library in Rome rediscovered a manuscript containing symbolic portraits of the Popes from the seventeenth to twenty-first century, indicating their fates, made by the prophet Michel de Nostradamus itself. This manuscript, which was never published, was handed down to the prophet's son Cesar (passed away in 1631) and later on donated by him to Pope Urban VIII. Their purpose was to indicate the hidden chronology of his quatrains to the future Leaders of the Catholic Church, the Popes.

 

The Board 10:41 of the illustrated Manuscript contains the image of the horse on the journey for which it is said that it represents Pope John Paul II. There is a Turkish warrior attacking him on his right side and on his left side there is a halberd, which was for centuries used as armament by Vatican Swiss Guard, whose handle butt hits the horse. Image is also depicting a lion sinking his claws in the horse.

 

First event depicted on the Board 10:41 happened on May 13, 1981, when Turkish criminal and assassin, Ali Agca, shot the Pope John Paul II in the chest while he was blessing the crowd during regular openair appearance in St. Peter's Square. Grievously wounded, Pope reportedly forgave his attacker from his hospital bed and visited Agca in prison soon after. Over the past 19 years, the Pope had often called for clemency for Agca, even lending support to a proposed presidential pardon in 1998.

 

On May 4, 1998, Vatican's Swiss Guard Corporal Cedric Tornay killed the force's Commander Lois Estermann and his wife Gladys in a fit of rage, before turning his issue handgun on himself in the couple's Vatican flat. Officially the motive given was Tornay being passed over for promotion on disciplinary grounds, together with his own fragile mental state, which was blamed on a dependence of light drugs.

 

This is the second, publicly known, event which was registered on the drawing by Nostrodamus. Although it did not hurt the Pope physically it made tremendous damage to the perception of the Vatican and Catholic Church as a highly organized institution of benevolent beings, which are directly lead by the Holly Pope himself.'

 

Read this:

 

'Details of this drawing can be seen in the book "Scienza temporale e papi del futuro illustrati da Nostradamus" written by Ottavio Cesare Ramotti (publisher: Noesis-Roma, 1994). Iit's English version was published under the title "The Nostradamus Code" by Destiny Books.

 

Pope John Paul II, who was physically hurt during assassination attempt of Agca in 1981 and mentally and spiritually hurt when his dear friend, a Swiss Guard Commander, was killed by his subordinate in 1988, will die some 14,5 km from the river Rhone near the Lions Bay in France. This will happen after the two assassins, which were near to him have gone away.'

 

http://www.deepspace4.com/pages/prophecy/fatima/fatima2.htm

 

I guess from the details of the drawing in that book you could have calculated the death of the Pope but you were not sure of it.

 

But this is very interesting. I'll try to get that book and if the Pope's death could be calculated from that book, I'll produce it here and your days of TT are over unless if you predict another event and it happens.

 

That would be true if you are really in the future!

 

 

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  • 1 year later...

So what DID happen when the Pope died?

 

When the Pope dies, according to Catholic doctrine, from the moment one Pope dies unti the moment the next Pope is appointed, the church is thought to be in a rare position of spiritual vulnerability, when its earthly protector and defender is absent, leaving "the gates to the kingdom" undefended, as it were. During that brief period, the church is thought to be, spiritually speaking, a little more unguarded, vulnerable, and exposed than at any other time.

 

What do you suppose might happen if the Antichrist (assuming for the sake of this argument that such a being does, or will, exit) obtained entry into the heart of Vatican city during such a time? Would the lack of a living Pope constitute some sort of spiritual "breach of security" that would allow the Antichrist to acquire influence over those living and working in the Vatican, thus providing an opening for him to place his own man on the throne?

 

George W. Bush not only visited the Vatican for the funeral of John Paul II (the first time any American President ever attended a Papal funeral), but even though Bush had recently had differences with the Pope, he made an ostentatious entrance at the funeral that some at the time compared to the haughty arrival of a victorious conqueror. While police were turning away an overflow of Catholics humbly trying to join an already 18-hour-long line of mourners waiting to pay their respects, an armed escort whisked President Bush and his delegation directly from Air Force One at Rome's airport to the Vatican for their very own private viewing. For someone often criticized for being too easy-going and taking too many vacations, Bush seems to have been uncharacteristically anxious to see the Papal corpse for himself, so much so, in fact, that he rushed to do so as fast as humanly possible. In contract, when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans four months later, Bush waited two full days before finally bothering to go take a look at the devastation in his own backyard. But when the opportunity came to see Pope John Paul II in a casket halfway around the world, he seems to have been as anxious to go as a child to see Disneyland.

 

Considering how strenuously and publically Pope John Paul II had criticized and chastised President Bush just a few months earlier, this rush to see the Pope's corpse seems likely to have been inspired by something other than a simple urge to pay his respects.

 

Then just ten days after Bush's breathless dash to the Vatican, the man chosen to replace John Paul II, Joseph Ratzinger, had the pomp of his Papal election besmirched by one of the most peculiar and grotesque natural phenomena ever reported : a sudden plague of exploding frogs. Cardinal Ratzinger was elected head of the Roman Catholic Church on Tuesday April 19th 2005, and celebrated his first public Mass as Pope on Wednesday April 20th, but he was not formally inaugurated as the 265th pope until Sunday April 24th. The same week he was inaugurated, a plague eerily similar to those imposed on Egypt in the Bible rained down upon Ratzinger's hometown in Germany. According to reports from animal welfare workers, veterinarians, and eyewitnesses, thousands of frogs mysteriously began to explode in Hamberg after swelling to three-and-a-half times their normal size. Like a scene from a horror movie (or one of the legendary plagues of Egypt), the frogs' bodies expanded for many minutes before finally bursting, propelling their entrails a yard or more. Since nothing like this has ever been reported before (science still cannot explain it) and it took place exclusively in and around the hometown of the new Pope and only occurred during the week of his rise to the Papacy, it is being viewed by many Christian faithful as a divine sign straight out of the Book of Revelation :

 

"And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon,

 

and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet,

 

three unclean spirits, as it were frogs: for they are spirits of demons,

 

working signs; which go forth unto the kings of the whole world,

 

to gather them together unto the war of the great day of God the Almighty."

 

- Revelation 16:13-14

 

Numerous high-profile members of the Catholic Church have warned of this very thing, that the Papacy was about to be taken over by the devil himself.

 

One of three shepherd children who turned the town of Fatima into a pilgrimage site after telling of her visions of the Lady of Fatima in 1917 (the year of the Russian revolution), Sister Lucy dos Santos died in February 2005, just before Pope John Paul II did. The three prophecies she received became known as "The Three Secrets of Fatima", and the last of those secrets is, according to recently emerging reports, that Satan himself would soon take over the Vatican.

 

Vatican insider Malachi Martin also insisted that Satan was taking over the Vatican. From 1958 until 1964, Father Martin served in Rome where he was a close associate of Cardinal Augustin Bea and Popes John XXIII and Paul VI. Martin believed that the Vatican had finally been, after centuries-long efforts, infiltrated at the highest levels by Satanists.

 

"Anybody who is acquainted with the state of affairs in the Vatican

 

in the last 35 years is well aware that the prince of darkness has had

 

and still has his surrogates in the court of St. Peter in Rome"

 

- Father Malachi Martin, in The Fatima Crusader

 

In his books, Martin described a ceremony called "The Enthronement of the Fallen Archangel Lucifer" held in the Vatican on June 29, 1963. Martin never recanted his claim that this Satanic ritual occurred in the Vatican, repeatedly insisting that the ceremony did occur and that a general Satanic conspiracy exists within the Vatican. Martin continued to speak out about these things until his death in 1999, doing numerous newspaper and radio interviews (such as "The New American", the "Steel on Steel" radio show, and "The Art Bell Show").

 

Martin quoted Pope Paul VI as bemoaning that "the smoke of Satan has entered the Sanctuary". Martin correctly predicted, long before the American priest scandal erupted, that reports of pedophilia rites and practices would dramatically increase among Catholic clergy because, in his words, "The cultic acts of satanic pedophilia are considered by professionals to be the culmination of the Fallen rites." (Keys of This Blood, Fr. Malachi Martin, p. 632). Since Martin's prescient warnings, tens of thousands of children have reported being raped at Catholic altars and inside Catholic confessionals, forcing the Church to pay out billions of dollars to settle court cases involving child sexual abuse by priests. In the Boston Archdiocese alone 65 parishes had to close in order to raise the money necessary to pay these court settlements. One case alone involved more than 500 child victims and a mandated court settlement of over $85 million dollars. Martin foresaw all this occurring long before it appeared in our newspapers, but his central message, that these acts are warning sign that Satanists are commandeering the church, has been ignored. His 1976 book on exorcism, Hostage to the Devil, leaves no doubt that Martin believed that the devil existed and was gaining strength in the world.

 

Martin is by no means the only modern priest to make this claim. A few years ago, a retired Italian priest by the name of Msgr. Luigi Marinelli claimed in his book Gone With the Wind at the Vatican that Satanic rituals have been performed within the walls of the Vatican. But far more impressively, the Archbishop Emmanuel Milingo also spoke out about Satanism in the Vatican, and took a lot of heat for it. Milingo is a very controversial figure in the church; he became widely famous in the church for essentially effecting miracles. In Europe and Africa he is recognized as having performed numerous healings and exorcisms. "Tales of [his] miraculous cures from cancer, AIDS and other terminal illnesses abound in Italy. Thousands converge on his services to witness people, reputedly possessed with demons, writhing in agony on the floor while Milingo conducts his mass exorcism ." (London Telegraph, 2/7/99) But his high-profile services were frowned upon by the Vatican, and even though Pope John Paul II supported him, he was censored by Cardinal Ratzinger, who banned him from charismatic healing sessions and exorcisms during Mass. In response, Milingo upped the ante, and began to publically declare that Satanists had infiltrated the Vatican. Milingo first made these accusations in an address to an audience of clergy and laity from across the globe at the Fatima 2000 International Congress on World Peace on November 1996. Since then, perhaps predictably, the Vatican has excommunicated Milingo from the church, but he apparently remains undeterred, writing in his book Face to Face With the Devil that :

 

"The devil in the Catholic Church is so protected now that he is like an animal protected by the government; put on a game preserve that outlaws anyone, especially hunters, from trying to capture or kill it. The devil within the Church today is actually protected by certain Church authorities from the official devil-hunter in the Church - the exorcist. So much so that the exorcist today is forbidden to attack the devil. The devil is so protected that the one who is the hunter, the exorcist, is forbidden to do his job."

 

Although the Vatican turned their backs on him, fellow exorcist and Vatican insider Malachi Martin supported Milingo, writing "Archbishop Milingo is a good bishop and his contention that there are Satanists in Rome is completely correct."

 

Of course, the best known Catholic figure to suggest that John Paul II's successor would be the last Pope was the eleventh century Irish priest St. Malachy. According to his prophecies, the line of legitimate Pontiffs came to an end with John Paul II. Canonized by Pope Clement III on July 6, 1199, St. Malachy undertook to list in advance the proper succession of Roman pontiffs from Celestine II to "the end of the world". Now, there is some mystery about just how many Popes were on that list, as two different lists exist, one with 111 Popes after Celestine II, and another with 112 Popes. John Paul II, who just died, was number 110. Pope number 111 is either the last Pope, or the second to last Pope. In either case, Malachy's prophecies strongly suggest that the current Pope may be the "False Prophet" mentioned in St. John's Revelation who is to deliver the church to Satan.

 

Are Saint Malachy, Sister Lucy of Fatima, Pope Paul VI, Archbishop Milingo, and Malachi Martin correct after all? If so, it is perhaps not so curious that Cardinal Ratzinger chose the name "Benedict" for himself when he became Pope. The worst pope of the Dark Ages, Benedict IX, is notorious for having dabbled in witchcraft and Satanism.

 

- Peter

 

http://www.divisiontheory.com/antichrist.html

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
So I ask you all, not that it is close to disregard or

 

further away from the pasture, as it confines you, the

 

degree of uncertainty surrounding your times.

Just what is that miserable mixed-up mess of a sentence supposed to mean, anyway?

Zeshua uses codes, and anagrams, and all sorts of stuff like that there. This sentence is so

 

utterly nonsensical that it could not have been caused by a simple typo. Its meaninglessness has

 

to be intentional.

 

The sentence is composed of four segments separated by commas. The first, third, and fourth

 

segments are at least grammatically correct, and COULD mean something if they were in a more

 

appropriate sentence. They are only rendered meaningless by the fact that they dont seem to have

 

anything to do with the other segments in the sentence. But the second segment is even worse.

 

It is completely meaningless even in and of itself, not even taking into consideration any

 

relationship with the other segments.

 

This has to be another code. It has waited in vain to be broken for over a year and a half now.

 

Anyone have any ideas?

 

- Peter

 

 

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No doubt there is no reason to believe. Whats more, no

 

reason to believe in me. Then again why should I believe

 

in you, my predecessors as it were. [...]

 

The most important thing, which I must reveal now is,

 

that, above all, I must always sustain a degree of

 

disbelief. As long as some of you, as us humans do, will

 

always be IN disbelief, there are few but very definite

 

limits of what can be said. So I ask you all, not that

 

it is close to ... or further away from ... the degree

 

of uncertainty surrounding your times.

Now, notice how much more sense that last line makes if we disregard the

single word "disregard" and then also disregard the nonsensical phrase

 

"the pasture, as it confines you".

 

Suddenly the whole gist of the post remains constant from beginning to

 

end, a short essay on the subject of belief. She says that she

 

must keep us in some degree of disbelief, and compares that degree of

 

disbelief or uncertainty that she imposes upon us to the level of

 

constant uncertainty that our times are imposing upon us already.

 

In other words, she seems to be saying, "this level of uncertainty

 

I am imposing upon you, or this level of uncertainty I am asking you

 

to live with, is not too much for you to bear, because your times

 

are already imposing at least this level of uncertainty upon you,

 

so you are already used to this level of discomfort.

 

Now, that is interesting, but I am much more interested in the added

 

words "disregard ... the pasture as it confines you". Now, what do

 

you suppose we are to do with them?

 

Now lets again disregard the word "disregard", and just concentrate

 

for the moment on the phrase "the pasture as it confines you".

 

Now, since we've been discovering that Zeshua has been using anagrams,

 

I ran that phrase thru the anagram solver, and guess what I found?

 

Well, wouldn't you know it, but this mysterious nonsensical phrase,

 

sticking out like a sore thumb in the middle of that post that was

 

ALL ABOUT proof and doubt and disbelief and uncertainty, this phrase

 

resolbes into "UNTIE ESSAYS AUTHENTIC PROOF".

 

I just find it too coincidental that this mysterious phrase translates

 

into something that includes the words "AUTHENTIC PROOF" in the first post

 

where Zeshua started talking about her own credibility, and so must conclude

 

that this is no coincidence at all, but another of Zeshua's anagram-coded

 

messages. If so, what does it say? Well, it seems to say that if we want

 

to find "authentic proof" of Zeshua's claims, we must closer at those

 

online posts of hers that might be called "essays", and try to "untie"

 

messages hidden within them.

 

So, well, that doesn't really tell us anything we didnt know before,

 

but it does seem to demonstrate that those hidden messages do indeed

 

exist within Zeshua's posts.

 

- Peter

 

 

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In my estimation, this all boils down to the difference between percentages and individual numbers. "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." -Josef Stalin

 

Assuming a time traveler must have a degree of disbelief is logical. If everyone believes a time traveler is genuine, that will alter reality. Kinda like if Jesus Christ appeared in Times Square on New Year's Eve 2000- we'd all quit our jobs, go to church, repent, give to the poor etc... life as we knew it would be over.

 

Assuming such is the case, the solution is the difference between percentages and individual numbers. Posting the Powerball numbers so 100,000 people can win it is a percentage-figure... if 100,000 people won it, not only would they all get a mere pittance, but the event itself would be a major disruption in the natural flow of time.

 

However, if you gave one person the Powerball numbers, you can safely transmit that information through time. Even if that one person says "I got these numbers from a time traveler", no one would believe them and even if they did, no one could ever prove it and regardless, they possess the winning ticket.

 

If Zeshua is the real deal, Zeshua has the ability to give information to one person in this present as validation that she is the real deal. And I don't mean Powerball numbers- I mean personal communication one-on-one with tangable, actionable information.

 

But what Zeshua has given us to date is nothing more than educated guesses shrouded by anagrams- truth be told- if I came to this forum and said "I am a time traveler from the future and DISASTER LOOMS!!!", no one would pay me any mind. Why? Because this is not a prediction- it's a vague reference that can apply to anything, anywhere... it's not new information. And to date, this is all Zeshua has provided.

 

If we took the title of your latest novel "Original Christianity" and ran it through the anagram server, we'd come back with "Inartistic hairy lingo". Now is your novel inartistic hairy lingo just because it rearranges to spell that out?

 

 

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If everyone believes a time traveler is genuine, that will alter reality. [...]

 

If Zeshua is the real deal, Zeshua has the ability to give information to one person in

 

this present as validation that she is the real deal.

How do you know she hasn't?

If she did do this, if she did provide one person with that validation, and that person

 

kept the information to themselves, then you never would have heard of it. On the other

 

hand, if she provided that validating information and the person then shared the information

 

with the rest of the world, then, just as you say, "everyone would believe a time traveler

 

is genuine, and that would alter reality".

 

But there is a third option. Can you think of it? I believe that third option is the one

 

that Zeshua chose to put into play.

 

- Peter

 

 

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But there is a third option. Can you think of it?

she provided the validating information to a trusted third person but the third person has refused to share this information with a group of people or a public forum.Or the third person has shared the information with one person and neither one know how important it is.

Much like JT's secret song to Pamela.

 

 

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Just a general question and perhaps someone has asked already:

 

How old is Zeshua?

 

Perhaps some other tidbits of info from her about herself?

 

I doubt if anyone here is going to say that time travelers are visiting us? But then I do not really know anyone except what I read.

 

If anyone knew perhaps in a manner what was going to happen in the future, I doubt if it would change anything anyway since most people live by habits anyway? If a real time traveller even told us things to begin with, it is difficult for most people to change habits and even more so the way that they would think in the future even if they could change. Most people would revert to previous habits again and it would take a great conscious effort on the part of the person to really change and by that time, someone else who was more in agreement with what the boss wanted done would be found. Other people would question why the change in that person's thinking and begin to wonder if the person just went crazy or something and that person who had changed would have to state why they chose to change (although there are certain growth points along a person's life and all people in the end change but usually via what is going on in someone's life or by perhaps another person.)

 

So to me the question is really is Zeshua trying to change the way some people think as of now, and if so, why, and in the end what time ripples would that invoke?

 

If not, then providing tidbits of info to such a small group of people on this forum (and perhaps a few other forums) really is not going to convince anyone in the group or outside of the group to offer any different opinion than usually they will have?

 

The future is set by the personality of the big boss in the end, and that is the person that really has to change or else people all do what they have been doing and that is going along with it, and at times not liking what the person is doing.

 

We all need a job is the answer given then by the people who think they are better than the big boss, and by people too comfortable with the money they make now to make such a change.

 

That to me is where God comes in. If you do not go with the flow you end up doing something else with your life, and it may not make as much money but then you may just end up happier. Some people equate money with happiness and then complain how money helps but they are not happy anyway. (like not making as much money makes anyone happier either. It doesn't.) Then the only satisfaction involved is that doing something else is more in tune with what the person thinks makes him/her happier and the person ends up doing that anyway.

 

Then there are the other people who claim that no one should be happy because he/she is not happy.

 

It is all in the end a kind of mind control and a few people suggest it should be that way (usually the big boss.)

 

Therefore the other people either have to live with it or end up making a change that effect others without going into detail about what that may involve.

 

Well, enough of my babbling.

 

Some people ususally get scared by others suggesting that they change because the other people usually do not think that they have to change. This can be for any number of reasons like age, weight, sex, agenda, whatever. But most people will change during life at some time. When it is forced upon a person it scares them. Even if it is only meant as advice or to help. That person that is suppose to change according to the other person trying to help them suggest it is them that should change about offering advice in the first place. It will always be all mixed up and jumbled then. So why would anyone begin to think that time travellers are contacting people here at this time and in this manner in the first place. The only way someone would believe it is that it must be proved and that is something that only can be considered to advance by the time in the future.

 

So with the experiment of Kramer (I am guessing which was talked about recently in the Blast from the Past or whatever it is with the photons and entanglement and photons traveling backwards in time), to me, what will it really prove? First if the photons do travel back in time -- how far back in time do those photons actually travel? Can anyone really tell what else it does effect with other entanglements then? And if that did happen then the future was different already anyway so the experiment can not work because it was already proved back in the Past then.

 

I just don't intend to become a nutcase or nutjob about any of it anyway.

 

(And I doubt being as old as I am that I will. Perhaps some others will, but no, I read all of that psychology stuff anyway so I doubt if it really will effect my mind. It did not in life before so why should it now? It does not mean that I am stubborn but it may mean that some other people (or Leaders) are stubborn.)

 

So is Zeshua stubborn?

 

Just some amusing questions for the gal perhaps.

 

 

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How old is Zeshua?

 

Perhaps some other tidbits of info from her about herself?

If I understand correctly, Zeshua is currently (that is, in December 2006) a young child somewhere around the age of eight, living in Iowa. She goes on to live through a version of history that has alot in common with what Titor predicted.

She says that a great many people, in America and other nations as well, die of starvation and conflict in the next ten years or so. Economic troubles get very bad, to the point that essentially all long-distance trucking ceases. Riots occur. One surprising developwent is that people in the heartland start dying in mass quantities, not only because they don't have food or water, but because even when they do have those necessities, they still find they have no access to salt. When salt ceases to be shipped into the nation's interior due to the economic crisis and breakdown of civil authority, people in the nation's heartland find out that being able to grow their own food and drill their own wells is not enough to fulfill their bodys' nutritional needs.

 

At some point, Zeshua travels overseas and gets enrolled in a major European university, where she begins her experiment. She does not invent any new technology, but figured out a new use for already-existing technologies that allow her to tap into the Internet of the past.

 

- Peter

 

 

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I guess Zeshua never heard of the Bonneville Salt Flats- 159 square miles of salt that is six feet deep in most places. Literally an "ocean of salt", there is virtually an infinite supply of salt just lying there and yes- the United States is the largest producer of salt in the world. 159 square miles is so much salt that if you looked at it, it would extend past the horizon- hence the name "salt flats".

 

Guess Zeshua never heard of horses either- beasts of burden that can go great distances carrying hundreds of pounds of, among other things, salt.

 

A human body requires 4.5 pounds of salt per year, which is .2 ounces a day. That salt shaker in your kitchen is a three month supply of salt. But don't worry- the meat in your diet contains enough salt that it will never have to come to that, just like the Eskimos and Inuit who even today get all their salt from flesh.

 

Now let's imagine what Zeshua said really happens- the trucking lines stop and people can't get salt. My more immediate concern would be for staple items such as citrus- which is essential to the human body and for the most part grows in more temperate zones and clothing- which us Americans have for the most part lost the ability to make.

 

Of course if any catastophe hit America, our most immediate need would be for electricity to keep our lights on, keep our devices working, keep like support machines on and so on. If America lost electricity, millions of people would die within weeks- the last thing on everyone's mind would be salt. Electricity-for-heat would kill millions more when the first frost hit the country and as 98% of all American homes don't have a wood burning fireplace, many more would die a slow cold death.

 

 

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In the event of the sort of societal catastrophe Zeshua predicts, all the available horses would likely be eaten within the first year. You do the math. America's got 300 million people. Once the trucks stop bringing gasoline to the farms, the food industry grinds to a sudden halt. It's not like we are prepared to go back to plowing our fields with horses for 300 million. Perhaps a very few would, but 99% of the current land used for farming would go uncultivated. No food in the stores. No food in the fields. Any survivors left in the cities would eat any horses they could get their hands on, and you can sure bet they'd be looking for them.

 

Populations can exist quite nicely without citrus, as all the extreme Northern populations of the world demonstrate. The Eskimoes lived for thousands of years without any citrus. But not without salt.

 

Yes, the Bonneville Salt Flats exist, but that will be little consolation to people 500 miles away whose only transportation is by foot or bicycle. The average fool doesnt even realize he needs salt in his diet, and wouldnt even start worrying about it until he was too disabled to procure some with any difficulty. Without salt, a person will die in less than a month, and will weaken long before then.

 

Historically, the Salt Trade was the origin of all major overland trading routes around the world, including the Great Silk Road. It is the first thing people living away from the seashores discover they absolutely cannot do without.

 

In addition to the body's nutritional need for salt, that resource will also be necessary for preserving meat once the electricity is gone and not coming back.

 

Yes, meat does contain enough salt to keep a person alive, but only if that person's diet consists almost exclusively of meat, and only if it is then cooked in the proper way. Those populations whose diets consist largely of grains and vegetables will die quickly without salt supplementation.

 

- Peter

 

 

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America grows so many crops that we actually pay farmers billions of dollars a year NOT to grow them. We are also the largest exporter of grains in the world. If we closed our borders and told all the farmers to grow crops, we would have five times as much food as we do now.

 

Additionally, it takes ten pounds of grains to produce one pound of beef. If Americans cut back their meat consumption by say 33% (one meatless meal a day), we would have enough crops for food and to fuel our cars (ethanol).

 

Additionally, there are at least a hundred animals in America for every person- bison, deer, bears, birds, pigs, cows, rabbits and so on and they procreate much faster than humans do.

 

There is also one store selling foodstuffs for every 16 people in America. If all food deliveries stopped, all told there is at least a three month supply of food sitting on shelves everywhere across America ripe for looting.

 

Saying America can't or in the future won't grow crops or saying Americans will starve to death in some dismal future is simply nonsense. As any non-American can plainly see by looking at the waistline of any American, we are overflowing with food.

 

----------------------------

 

>>Populations can exist quite nicely without citrus, as all the extreme Northern populations of the world demonstrate. The Eskimoes lived for thousands of years without any citrus. But not without salt.<<

 

"Vitamin C can be found in a variety of traditional Eskimo/Inuit staples, including the skin of beluga whales (known as muktuk), which is said to contain as much vitamin C as oranges. Other reported sources include the organ meats of sea mammals as well as the stomach contents of caribou."

 

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010119.html

 

As far as salt goes, eskimos live near the sea, which is 6% salt. So do the Eastern and Western seaboards of the USA, which is 35% of the population- over 100 million people.

 

--------------------------------

 

>>Without salt, a person will die in less than a month, and will weaken long before then.<<

 

Can you please cite a reference for this statement? As I wrote earlier, "the meat in your diet contains enough salt that it will never have to come to that".

 

--------------------------------

 

>>Yes, the Bonneville Salt Flats exist, but that will be little consolation to people 500 miles away whose only transportation is by foot or bicycle.<<

 

So you're saying that people will die from lack of salt even though they know an infinite supply of salt is only 500 miles away? You're saying farmers would rather kill and eat their livestock than start a "cattle salt drive"?

 

Do you know how much salt would be worth if everyone ran out of it? An awful lot. There'd be tons of people making trips to SALT LAKE City and distributing it throughout the country for a huge profit, not to mention the 1.2 million residents of SLC who would all go into the salt business.

 

And I haven't even mentioned the Federal Government stepping in to distribute salt no less the billions of tons of salt already sitting in millions of salt houses in every little town across America waiting for the snow.

 

---------------------------------

 

>>Those populations whose diets consist largely of grains and vegetables will die quickly without salt supplementation.<<

 

That's kinda funny because I am a Vegan and last time I checked, I had a pulse.

 

There is absolutely no validity to any claim that we will ever run out of salt, in fact it's much harder to get rid of the billions of tons of salt we already have than to imagine a saltless America.

 

 

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I understand Zeshua's point- if things got bad and all the stores closed, salt would become very valuable. Go into any supermarket- there's 100 or so containers on the shelf and maybe a couple hundred more in the back- they would be gone in a day. But really- there is enough salt on the planet to fill the Pacific Ocean!

 

 

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> America grows so many crops that we actually pay farmers billions of dollars

 

> a year NOT to grow them. We are also the largest exporter of grains in the world.

 

> If we closed our borders and told all the farmers to grow crops, we would have

 

> five times as much food as we do now.

 

True. But if those farmers could not get gasoline to power their farm equipment, they wouldn't be able to grow even 1% of their current produce.

 

> Additionally, it takes ten pounds of grains to produce one pound of beef. If

 

> Americans cut back their meat consumption by say 33% (one meatless meal

 

> a day), we would have enough crops for food and to fuel our cars (ethanol).

 

And if everyone would just be nice and fair to one another, we wouldn't need lawyers.

 

But that's not going to happen either.

 

> Additionally, there are at least a hundred animals in America for every

 

> person- bison, deer, bears, birds, pigs, cows, rabbits and so on and they

 

> procreate much faster than humans do.

 

True, but if an economic crisis shut down long-distance trucking, all such farm animals would never be processed into meat and delivered to the massive populations living in the cities. Without the farms producing crops, their would be no food for farm animals, and without the trucking industry, there would be no medicine for them either. The crops would die in the fields, and the livestock in their pens.

 

And as for animals living in the wild, they would prove of no value to America's teeming city masses. Most city dwellers would not have the first clue where to look for wild meat, nor would they have any transportation to such hunting areas, nor would they have the necessary skills to find and kill any wild animals even if they could get there. Most city dwellers would die in city riots long before they even had a chance to think about going off into the countryside to hunt for food. The cities would go up in flames like stacks of cordwood. Without gasoline, the fire departments would be powerless to stop fires, and a single fire would be free to spread as far as the wind allowed. Without gasoline, the police would be powerless to stop rioting, and with no law to counter them, the hungry and desperate poor, who always relied on society to provide all their needs, would be out for revenge. There would be killings. There would be fires. Armed gangs would roam unopposed, looking for food, or, lacking that, anything else they happened to find.

 

> There is also one store selling foodstuffs for every 16 people in America.

 

> If all food deliveries stopped, all told there is at least a three month supply

 

> of food sitting on shelves everywhere across America ripe for looting.

 

Not nowadays. Modern business has embraced JIT marketing (Just-In-Time. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_In_Time_%28business%29). It is estimated that most cities contain just a three or four-day supply of food at any given moment. If all the semis stopped coming in over those expressways, in less than a week most people would be starving.

 

> Saying America can't or in the future won't grow crops or saying Americans

 

> will starve to death in some dismal future is simply nonsense. As any non-American

 

> can plainly see by looking at the waistline of any American, we are overflowing with food.

 

Sure, we're fat now. The system is working now. But if the system stops working?

 

> So you're saying that people will die from lack of salt even though they know an

 

> infinite supply of salt is only 500 miles away? You're saying farmers would rather

 

> kill and eat their livestock than start a "cattle salt drive"?

 

I'm saying that no one can successfully walk 500 miles without salt, especially through hostile terrain filled with hoards of starving and desperate people.

 

> Do you know how much salt would be worth if everyone ran out of it?

 

> An awful lot.

 

Yes. In fact, some of the earliest forms of money were cakes of salt. When you don't have any, it becomes priceless.

 

> There'd be tons of people making trips to SALT LAKE City and distributing

 

it throughout the country for a huge profit, not to mention the 1.2 million

 

> residents of SLC who would all go into the salt business.

 

There would be people who would try. Salt Lake City is in the middle of some pretty desolate countryside, isn't it?. How long could you walk out there? I believe you'd have to be carrying your own water a good portion of the trip, and your own guns, and your own food. And everyone you met along the way would covet your treasure enough to be at risk of killing you for it..

 

It's not easy to engage in mass distribution on foot. You could try to ride a horse, but you'd only keep it until you met someone hungry enough to kill you for it. You could try to ride a bicycle, but how much salt could you transport on a bike, and would it be worth risking your life to attempt it?

 

> And I haven't even mentioned the Federal Government stepping in to distribute salt

 

> no less the billions of tons of salt already sitting in millions of salt houses in every

 

> little town across America waiting for the snow.

 

The scariest words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help'. We saw how helpful and efficient and reliable the government was with Katrina last year, didn't we? You think the government would know better than you how to mass-distribute salt via foot or bicycle or horseback? [censored], they have all the tools in the world now and they still can't find their asses with both hands. Without gasoline, the government would be even more crippled than the individual.

 

> There is absolutely no validity to any claim that we will ever run out of salt,

 

> in fact it's much harder to get rid of the billions of tons of salt we already have

 

> than to imagine a saltless America.

 

Of course we will not run out. The problem is not one of availability but distribution.

 

But in a city full of empty gas tanks, supplies 500 miles away might as well be five million. Did you know that before the advent of cars and trains and suchlike, the average person never traveled more than 20 miles from his home in his entire life?

 

- Peter

 

 

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I still don't know what you are talking about. I never ever use salt, and I eat vegetables now, since I had a heart attack. I have not used salt in years. Salt is bad for you. I do use pepper now.

 

Perhaps it is all the salt in the food, my container of salt is still up there in the cupboard, and I just don't see why it is even needed.

 

Oh well.

 

 

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Fruits and veggies do contain their fair amount of salt and if you're a vegetarian, ultimately you need never worry about salt intake again.

 

I am extremely impressed with you having a heart attack and understanding what you body is trying to tell you: that at no time in the whole of human history have humans eaten so much meat as they do now- that never before have people woken up to eggs and bacon, chowed down on a double hamburger and supped a nice juicy steak. 90% of the planet doesn't eat as good as we do which unfortunately puts us in the same mindset as the roaring 20's which unfortunately ended in The Great Depression.

 

My father was diagnosed with Conjective Heart Failure from his 60+ years of steaks and chicken wings, unfortunately he is not listening to his body. His birthday was a few months ago and know what they did to celebrate? They went out for prime rib. Wonderful.

 

 

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>>Most city dwellers would not have the first clue where to look for wild meat, nor would they have any transportation to such hunting areas, nor would they have the necessary skills to find and kill any wild animals even if they could get there...Armed gangs would roam unopposed, looking for food, or, lacking that, anything else they happened to find. <<

 

I hate to be this blunt but it's the simple truth: too bad for them. If you live in a major city, you are foregoing your capacity to live independantly in exchange for the pretty city lights. Even Titor said when the crap hits the fan, everyone will know where the hell to get away from and where the hell the targets will be.

 

The simple truth is that if you put eight million people in 30 acres like Manhattan, those people will ultimately live or die by their bridge system. Don't know how else to put it, this hits the matter at hand. If the lights went out in Times Square, would Times Square still be there three months later? Ask Tyler Durden.

 

So yeah, you're right- if there is no gas, there will be no truck deliveries... there will be mass chaos in the cities. As a 9/11 survivor now living independantly in the last place on Earth Russia or the terrorists would look for me I can safely say that.

 

As far as farmers go, it's very simple. If we were knocked back to the 15th century overnight, a farm would still have the capacity to generate food for a thousand people. The problem is not farming but Big Farming- when you have 2.3 million pigs on one God-awful farm. That is when the viruses spread and suddenly everyone can't eat at Taco Bell or Chili's anymore. You're just not seeing the big picture.

 

>>Sure, we're fat now. The system is working now. But if the system stops working?<<

 

Then as John Titor put it, you pick up your bicycle, learn how to shoot a shotgun and learn how to do more than sit back waiting for Freeto Lays new Wild Zesty Crispshits to come out.

 

>>I'm saying that no one can successfully walk 500 miles without salt, especially through hostile terrain filled with hoards of starving and desperate people...The problem is not one of availability but distribution.<<

 

And I am saying that if tomorrow you realized you could sell the dirt in your backyard for $500 a pound but you had to deliver it 500 miles away, would you do it?

 

>>If an economic crisis shut down long-distance trucking, all such farm animals would never be processed into meat and delivered to the massive populations living in the cities.<<

 

This is where the above-written "salt cattle drive" comes into play. 1000 cows hike to SLC, the remaining 100 carry back the well-salted jerky of 900 cows for sale as a commodity for those 500+ miles from SLC.

 

And finally, I find it amazing that you will take even the most ludicrous assertion by Zeshua and twist and distort it to fit your version of reality. And I say this with no offense intended- clearly the intelligence of Zeshua is vague at best and is clearly defined, reinforced and supported by someone who simply believes. In what, I do not know.

 

"This conversation is over." -Tyler Durden

 

PS- I am still waiting for you to cite a reference for >>Without salt, a person will die in less than a month, and will weaken long before then.<<

 

 

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> As far as farmers go, it's very simple. If we were knocked back to the 15th century overnight,

 

> a farm would still have the capacity to generate food for a thousand people. The problem is not

 

> farming but Big Farming- when you have 2.3 million pigs on one God-awful farm.

 

I don't think so. How many farmers, big or small, would be able to keep their production levels up if their access to commercial fertilizers, pesticides, seed, and feed was blocked? Most farms today use those newfangled genetically modified 'Monsanto' style seeds that grow fine crops but don't produce seed for the next year's crops. A few do use the old-style seed, called 'heritage' or heirloom' seeds, but those sort of farmers are few and far between. Between their dependence on mechanized machinery fuel, artificial seeds, fertilizer, and pesticides, the idea that the modern farmer is independent of and immune to societal disruptions is ludicrous. How many farmers even possess work horses and old-style plows that could work a field anymore? In the sort of societal breakdown that Titor envisioned, most farmers would be forced to work their fields with nothing more sophisticated than hand-held hoes. For farmers who have grown accustomed to having mechanized machinery do all the hard work, going back to such intense manual labor would likely be a recipe for an epidemic of strokes and heart attacks.

 

And then of course, there would be all the displaced hungry masses who would swarm like locusts over any crops that farmer had successfully planted, robbing him of his crop before it could be harvested.

 

> And I am saying that if tomorrow you realized you could sell the dirt in your backyard

 

> for $500 a pound but you had to deliver it 500 miles away, would you do it?

 

Obviously the motivation would exist. I merely question the logistics of such an operation. Driving 1000 cows through 500 miles of desolation filled with nothing but thousands and thousands of starving, desperate, and probably well-armed people seems unlikely to succeed. You'd need a sizable army to provide security for such an operation, and that army would itself likely be suffering from salt deficiency for the first leg of that journey. Most folks probably wouldn't even realize that they needed to go get salt until the symptoms of salt deprivation already started to appear (and were recognized as such) in the general population, and by then your army's strength and health would already be compromised. It would be a matter of 'the spirit is willing, but the body is weak'. In the middle of such societal chaos, when you're out trying to recruit folks to join your army for this mission, how many of the people you approach are going to think to themselves that it might be a better idea to just steal one of your cows now and feed their own families with it, instead of risking their lives going off on some seemingly hair-brained idea while their families sicken and starve and remain in unprotected danger from all the societal unrest? I think you'd lose your cows, and possibly your life, before you got your ambitious cattle drive even a mile out of town.

 

> I am still waiting for you to cite a reference for >>Without salt, a person will die in less than a month, and will weaken long before then.<<

 

"Archaeologists believe that salt eating developed as humans learned how to keep animals and grow crops in the years after 10,000 BC. As the proportion of meat in their diet fell, people had to find salt for themselves and for their domesticated animals."

 

( http://www.salt.gov.uk/history_of_salt.shtml )

 

"Salt is an essential element. Life itself would be impossible without it, since the human body requires salt in order to function properly. The concentration of sodium ions in the blood is directly related to the regulation of safe body fluid levels. [...] The effects of salt deficiency are highlighted in times of war, when human bodies and national economies are strained to their limits. Thousands of Napoleon's troops died during the French retreat from Moscow due to inadequate wound healing and lowered resistance to disease - the results of salt deficiency. Salt production facilities in Saltville, Va., Virginia's Kanawha Valley and Avery Island, Louisiana, were early targets of the Union Army. The North fought for 36 hours to capture Saltville, Va., where the salt works were considered crucial to the Rebel army - so crucial that Confederate President Jefferson Davis offered to waive military service to anyone willing to tend coastal salt kettles to supply the South's war effort." (http://www.cargillsalt.com/dc_salt_about_hist_salt.htm )

 

"An eight-year study of a New York City hypertensive population stratified for sodium intake levels found those on low-salt diets had more than four times as many heart attacks as those on normal-sodium diets." ( http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/salt.htm )

 

"Hyponatremia {salt deficiency) is a condition known as "water intoxication." It is the opposite of dehydration, and is often associated with long distance events like running and cycling. Moreover, it's not an unusual problem, and you can develop it in a few hours. As you consume large amounts of water over the course of a day, blood plasma (the liquid part of blood) increases thereby diluting the salt content of the blood. At the same time, your body also loses salt by sweating. Consequently, the amount of electrolytes available to your body tissues decreases over time to a point where that loss interferes with brain, heart, and muscle function!"

 

( http://geo-outdoors.info/hyponatremia.htm)

 

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_deficiency

 

http://www.dmt123.com/diseases-conditions/377-dmt123.html

 

http://www.siftocanada.com/saltbook/yourbody.htm

 

The following document reports that the symptoms of salt deficiency can appear in just a few days of strenuous physical exertion if no salt has been consumed : http://www.scotclimb.org.uk/safety/heat.shtml

 

Also here, where it says 'Salt deficiency heat prostration generally occurs in the case of inexperienced newcomers after several days of strenuous, sweat-producing activity, balanced out with plenty of liquid but not enough salt. Gastrointestinal infections with diarrhea and vomiting accelerate the outbreak. The body's salt reserves are exhausted, which results in functional disorders in those organs that require salt. The symptoms begin with increased exhaustion, headache and severe muscle cramps. Absolutely typical signs include a deep paleness in the face and sweat-moistened skin when the patient faints.' At http://www.fit-for-travel.de/en/empfehlungen/sun.htm

 

Here is a study of salt deficiency in cows : 'The following are the symptoms of salt deficiency reported in Cornell studies (28). The first symptom was a craving for salt that was noticed within two weeks and by four weeks was a consistent observation. After two months, the cows showed a depraved appetite. It was manifested by licking the hands and clothing of barn personnel, consuming quantities of soil soaked with urine or the run-off from the manure pile, licking the barn walls and drinking the urine from other cows during urination. This was followed by a loss of appetite and body weight. In some cows feed intake was reduced to near zero. Milk production decreased as appetite decreased. The cows then assumed an emaciated appearance, developed a dry, rough skin (particularly on the neck), the hair coat became unkempt and the cattle became listless. In terminal cases, there was shivering, a staggered gait (most noticeable in the hind legs), weakness, abnormal heart activity, low body temperature (as low as 96.3°F) and then death. In two cases, where cattle had arrived at this terminal condition, they were given 200 grams of salt and made complete recoveries.' at http://www.saltinstitute.org/47g.html

 

And this study reports that an exercising person can lose up to 20 grams of salt per day : ' The warning from the Salt Manufacturers' Association echoes growing independent concern from bodies such as Help the Aged that the elderly are being urged to drink water but not to maintain the sodium without which they can be vulnerable to heart attacks and strokes. A new Department of Health 'Heatwave Guide' to looking after yourself in hot weather makes no mention of the importance of maintaining sodium and other electrolyte levels. And NHS Direct similarly offers no advice on salt intake in a heatwave. 'This is an issue where urgent, authoritative advice is needed,' says SMA general secretary Peter Sherratt. 'Many older people have cut back on salt as a result of the Government's blanket advice and they could now be highly at risk.' Amongst the experts who have raised the issue is leading physiologist Professor Bill Keatinge. He recommends that elderly people maintain their intake of both water and salt during heatwaves, when heat-related deaths typically increase by 50 per cent. In just one week of the hot summer of 2003, over 2,000 deaths in Britain were linked to the weather. 'Heat stress causes loss of salt and water in sweat, which thickens the blood and can lead to an increased risk of heart attack and stroke,' says Professor Keatinge. Older people – especially those who are not acclimatised to the heat – are far more vulnerable, particularly during the early summer when temperatures begin to rise. Hot weather may lessen appetite, but not eating regularly can lead to a salt deficiency. The sodium in salt is important for muscle function and helps to maintain the fluid balance within the body. Professor Keatinge advises that older people should maintain their salt levels by continuing to eat the balanced diet that they normally would. To avoid dehydration, they should drink plenty of water when thirsty. Meanwhile, Help the Aged has mounted a campaign urging the public to look out for older relatives and neighbours in the hot weather. A key recommendation is to maintain salt intake and drink lots of water. Also at risk from government blanket advice to cut salt are those who exercise. Any energetic activity that causes us to sweat also depletes the vital sodium levels in our body. Poor performance and cramps can follow, but a greater threat comes from hyponatraemia – abnormally low concentration of sodium in the blood – which can result in coma or even death.

 

Research by Professor Ron Maughan of Loughborough University has undertaken research which that professional footballers can lose up to 20 grammes of salt in a typical day's training. His warning to maintain salt levels applies to anyone who exercises, especially during heatwaves.' at http://www.saltsense.co.uk/releases/rel017.htm

 

- Peter

 

 

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If things got really bad, can you think of a valid reason for not instituting martial law? It would certainly happen.

 

The government already has plans for a massive calamity. An ex-serviceman told me that the U.S. has already printed Scrip notes stored at Fort Knox which would replace currency in the worst scenario.

 

Gasoline and diesel fuel (which modern agribusiness largely uses) can be supplied from the strategic oil reserves maintained for emergency shortfalls. Beyond that the government would run oil production.Severe rationing--get a motorcycle or walk. Where are you going anyway--to work?

 

The army could see to it that salt was distributed--but where do we get it? Out of mines? That would be an interesting datum to know.

 

We can easily produce enough field corn to feed the population. So you don't like cormeal mush--so what? Eat paper. :)

 

Of course the point about the cities is well taken. Their populations would be hungry monsters, but what could they do that was of economic value to the rest of the country? This could be a basis for setting country against city as J.T. suggested.

 

 

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Oh, ya, the heat and the salt. Guess I am still getting it from the food then.

 

Oh, the gas. Well, there is a trillion and a half barrels underneath the shale rock in this Country. Just harder to get at, and would cost more. It is under I think guessing Wyoming, Colorado, somewhere about there.

 

It just ain't drilled for as of yet. Offshore is probably still cheaper than drilling for that oil.

 

The people would pick the food at the farm to have food, and that would become the chore necessary to have food from the farmer and the farm. The people would help who wanted to eat and all of that stuff. Then there is grain in the silo bins that sits there because the price may not be quite high enough to sell it.

 

I live here in the Midwest, and I just can not see where all those people would die. Other places yes, but not here. I sure steps would be taken, unless all the wind farms take over, and crops are not planted for awhile. But then, crops could be, although one may need a few months supply of food to begin with. Further thinking required and exercise more needed.

 

 

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