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What exactly makes us the "present"


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What exactly makes us the \"present\"

 

How can we really tell that what we leave now is the present? If we wnent back in time the people there would feel as if they were leaving in the present, and if we went forward they would feel the same. Is it possible that the present is just some point in the future and that all we are doing is following in their shadow, with no independence, but only an illusion of reality and free will?

 

 

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Re: What exactly makes us the \"present\"

 

Time is just made up of moments of present, or rather, 'now'. Thats why its possible for a person from a thousand years ago to exist at the same time as you and another person from a thousand years into the future.

 

That present moment that has just passed, still exists and is still a moment of now - only you are no longer in it.

 

In some dimension of time, everything is happening all at once. Otherwise time travel would not be possible, there would be no dimension linking everything together acting as a bridge for you to access the different moments of now.

 

maybe thinking of a train on a track is better. instead of the train moving, the track (world) moves and you are always stationary, you are always percieving a moment of now.Its the timeline that moves towards you rather then you moving through it. If you reversed the flow. You be bringing the past back into your moment of now, which you never leave.

 

In other words it is only ever possible to experince the here and now. If you travel back or forward. You are not experiencing being in the past or future - you are still in your own here and now.

 

At montauk, they said that sometimes when they went forward in time the future was dream like and not always complete. They said that as the 'past' or 'present' played out, the future would solidify and become fixed. Once the event energy was fixed or manifested as 'solid', the future became fixed and unchangable. However if it was not totally manifested but solidifying then It meant you could still effect the overall outcome for good or bad. However once the future starts setting, one thing is certain, the chain can't be broken - there will be an outcome.

 

I only included that last bit for interest rather then caiming this is how it is. It would help support however, this idea that prophocies are events that are still salvagable (not yet totally fixed) and predictions are cast iron (the event has already been fixed into a future moment of now) and will be experienced.

 

Of course this is with regard to the same timeline rather then a parallel one.

 

Makes more sense then it first seems.

 

Kind regards,

 

Olly

 

 

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Re: What exactly makes us the \"present\"

 

blaaah,

 

How can we really tell that what we leave now is the present? If we wnent back in time the people there would feel as if they were leaving in the present, and if we went forward they would feel the same. Is it possible that the present is just some point in the future and that all we are doing is following in their shadow, with no independence, but only an illusion of reality and free will?

You're on the right track.

First, lose "we" and replace it with "I" or "me." Once you do that you have an almost complete solution.

 

It is explained in Special Relativity by the fall of the classical notion of simultaneity. The "present" relates only to you and is mde up from data coming to you from the relative past as measured by you. The input can only travel to you from some distant object that you are observing at the speed of light. It takes a finite amount of time for the event to occur at a distance and then, in the future as measured in that frame, for you to receive the information about that event.

 

Different observers who cannot occupy the same 4D spacetime coordinate will have their individual measurements about when and where distant events occur.

 

That is the reality in which we exist absent time machines. The effect becomes more pronounced if you place the observers in motion relative to each other.

 

In Special Relativity the notion that two or more events occur simultaneously fails. Multiple observers at different locations and having different velocities relative to each other will not agree on when and where an event occurs.

 

 

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Re: What exactly makes us the \"present\"

 

themaster2,

 

suppose there was never a h.g. wells or any other sci fi writer who wrote about time travel would we ever wonder about it.

Sure we would. H. G. Wells' novels weren't the result of a "man before his time" as Urban Legend would have one believe. His works were the result of his being a gifted writer coupled with having a B.Sc. in biology and being a contemporary of Maxwell and Lorentz.

So if it hadn't been Wells it would have been someone else that we would look to as the sci-fi #1 writer of the late 19th to the mid-20th Centuries. (Wells died shortly after the end of the Second World War).

 

Lorentz and Maxwell published their papers on optics and E&M in the late 1870's. "The Time Machine" was written in 1895.

 

 

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Re: What exactly makes us the \"present\"

 

Without having a human, being in the equation, I think that there is no Present.

 

Only the human makes it seem as if there is a Present.

 

Take SpaceTime, and add the coordinate for Time, and the three coordinates for Space, and there is a position where anything is at (a bit more complicated than that actually with 10 coordinates, I think), so the Present is somewhere down there in the very small at the Planck's Length, perhaps!

 

So if there are parallel universes, take one universe, and there is a -- Time -- when it begins, and it will end, but now down there in the very small and the other curled-up six dimensions, and perhaps, it is a bit more involved, and many universes are represented each with its own - Time -- of when it will begin and when it will end!

 

Don't know, actually though!

 

 

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Re: What exactly makes us the \"present\"

 

"The Present" is this moment "right now", when we are free to decide whether to turn left or right; affect the future. "The past" is a string of events that are unalterable and completly coherent; sequential. "The future" is the moment when you're in the present and realize you have a choice whether to turn left or right knowing your actions will produce an outcome. Of the past, present and future, we can only exist in the present. The present is completly reliant on the past to exist, the future wouldn't exist if there wasn't a present first and we're stuck in the middle.

 

This is because we are finite, tangable beings and can only think sequentially (mice born in space). We cannot ever be in the past, we can never change the past. The past must absolutely be one continuitous flow of sequential events all the way back to the Big Bang at all times. At the same time, "the future" must always exist theoretically, in the present and never be reachable; we can never see the true outcome of our actions, the best we can do is guess.

 

This is because the 4D universe we live in is superimposed on a 5D universe and we, as beings of this universe, exist as a spark of energy flowing from one end to the other over time like electricity through a wire. It's not until you are out of "the present" that you realize "the past" and "the future" can and do actually exist as well (just like a fish doesn't know it's in the water until you take it out of the water), this is called time travel: to change your "present" to another moment in time- as Titor put it, to enter and thereby quantify that universe.

 

In our "labratory of the mind" we have two of those magnetic ball-thingees that makes a spark jump from one to the other spaced apart and held upright, facing each other, one has a positive charge, the other has a negative charge, the spark jumps the gap. But instead of a gap, connecting both balls is a large handful of long, spaghetti-like metal wires and holding them together as a bunch is a metal O-Ring. We turn the machine on and the metal O-ring immediately jumps to one end of the rope as it's attracted to one ball and repulsed from the other. We slowly change the polarity of the balls and we see the O-ring pushing its way from left to right and it ends up on the right side, working its way through the spaghetti strands, squeezing them as it passes along them.

 

 

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Re: What exactly makes us the \"present\"

 

What exactly makes us the "present"

Happenstance. All observers throughout space and time are on equal footing. Every observer's subjective present is "the" present.

Einstein told us that space-time is a gestalt entity; a single, unified, four-dimensional matrix. The orientation of the dimension of time, relative to the three of space, varies from observer to observer. When a hypothetical observer travels through space at the speed of light, one of the dimensions he previously perceived as space is transposed with the dimension he perceived as time. Space-time is malleable, distortable, twistable, and overall very strange.

 

What this model seems to imply is something like predestination. If all moments in time exist "simultaneously", with the past not fading away and the future not as unwritten as we think, then free will becomes an illusion of the observers who are being duped by our gullible senses.

 

Stop reading here if you're not prepared for overly-wordy, marginally-scientific tangents.

 

I suspect (for I choose not to use the words believe and disbelieve) that to remedy this state which seems untenable to me in the operation of a sensible universe, there must exist a fifth dimension which is perpendicular to all four of the dimensions of spacetime. Across this dimension would be arrayed all possible iterations, or organizations, of matter and energy within space-time. This at first seems to imply ridiculous complexity, with entire space-times existing next door to one another that differ by the valence level of one electron, or the color of someone's eyes. For this reason, I choose to imagine the five dimensional system behaving in such a way that simplicity is conserved. It is difficult to put into words, but that means something like that only one iteration exists, and the electron or the eye color simultaneously exist in a superposed state, as is postulated by Schroedinger, and hinted at by Heisenberg's idea of the wavefunction. Basically, the whole structure works a bit like a hologram. All the information for all possible states of the universe exist, latent, within the 5D system. What you see, as an observer in space-time, bears no meaning on what "is", objectively, but upon what the emergent sensory limiting system of your mind can evoke from the system based upon certain complex factors within itself. Yes, it implies something like the idea of manifesting particular circumstances through hope, prayer, or mere expectation, and yes it is as unverifiable as these similar ideas. At this point it completely departs from the realm of science (as it exists now) and crosses over into hypothetical meta-science.

 

So, I hope that's somewhat helpful. And if anyone is familiar with the Schroedinger equations or wavefunction physics, I would be most intrigued to hear what comments or critiques you have for my layman's model.

 

 

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Re: What exactly makes us the \"present\"

 

>Happenstance. All observers throughout space and time are on equal footing. Every observer's subjective present is "the" present.<

 

I agree and disagree. I disagree because me right now, from my perspective, am living in the present and at this moment there is a continuitous flow of events that led directly to me here now. If our "spot in time" is not arbitrary because I cannot go back in this universe and change the past, that would directly affect me here in the present (the Butterfly effect). But at the same time, if you dropped me in any point if time, that point would become the present for me, so I agree in that respect.

 

>When a hypothetical observer travels through space at the speed of light, one of the dimensions he previously perceived as space is transposed with the dimension he perceived as time. Space-time is malleable, distortable, twistable, and overall very strange.<

 

Wonderfully put.

 

>What this model seems to imply is something like predestination. If all moments in time exist "simultaneously", with the past not fading away and the future not as unwritten as we think, then free will becomes an illusion of the observers who are being duped by our gullible senses.<

 

I agree, but I call it choice. That and the fact that certain things are out of our control, that's the "shared reality" part of the present.

 

>there must exist a fifth dimension which is perpendicular to all four of the dimensions of spacetime. Across this dimension would be arrayed all possible iterations, or organizations, of matter and energy within space-time. This at first seems to imply ridiculous complexity, with entire space-times existing next door to one another that differ by the valence level of one electron, or the color of someone's eyes.<

 

I gotta go back to Titor. As I like to say, all possibilities exist, but only the one that we percieve as the "tangable present" (which is defined as "the point in time when we can infer causality that will directly affect the future") is really reality, the rest are possibilities i.e. things that have no energy; tangability; causality. Titor said something like "I entered this universe and by entering it, quantified it". Another example of this is my computer. Opening "My Documents" I get a long list of my folders. If I add new folders to My Documents, they're not quantified unless I open the my documents folder, that is- if I add new folders then open my documents, only at that time will they load the thumbnails. Hope I conveyed that well enough.

 

>All the information for all possible states of the universe exist, latent, within the 5D system. What you see, as an observer in space-time, bears no meaning on what "is", objectively, but upon what the emergent sensory limiting system of your mind can evoke from the system based upon certain complex factors within itself. Yes, it implies something like the idea of manifesting particular circumstances through hope, prayer, or mere expectation, and yes it is as unverifiable as these similar ideas. At this point it completely departs from the realm of science (as it exists now) and crosses over into hypothetical meta-science.<

 

I think we're in reality when we have the choice of whether or not to say, break a vase knowing it will remain broken from then on.

 

I wrote a visual interpretation of the 5D model you suggest a few postings ago:

 

>In our "labratory of the mind" we have two of those magnetic ball-thingees that makes a spark jump from one to the other spaced apart and held upright, facing each other, one has a positive charge, the other has a negative charge, the spark jumps the gap. But instead of a gap, connecting both balls is a large handful of long, spaghetti-like metal wires and holding them together as a bunch is a metal O-Ring. We turn the machine on and the metal O-ring immediately jumps to one end of the rope as it's attracted to one ball and repulsed from the other. We slowly change the polarity of the balls and we see the O-ring pushing its way from left to right and it ends up on the right side, working its way through the spaghetti strands, squeezing them as it passes along them.<

 

Each string is an alternate universe over the entire spance of time. The O-ring is "the present", the O-ring is the point where all the strings are squeezed to one point. Regardless of whatever course each strand took to get there or goes after that point, at some point it will be squeezed inside that O-ring. The interior circumfrerence of the O-ring squeezes many strings together at once presenting many "alternate presents", moving back we see even more choice in the past as well as ahead to the future. If we wanted to jump into another universe, we "side step".

 

 

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  • 1 year later...

Re: What exactly makes us the \"present\"

 

If it all gets confusing just remember this phrase the past is the present and the present is the future. Therefore what we live becomes our past which is a direct result of our future, which is influenced by the present. Think of it like this

 

Past-------------->present<-----------future

 

I hope this helps

 

Captain Jack Harkness. ;)

 

(a.k.a the face of boe)

 

 

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