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I know what happens in 2012.


titorite
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As for your post prior to last post.... I wonder who moved the cable spools. Seems the only one that wasn't - was probably too close to the building. Are you certain the red area marking the impact site isn't covering the Yield sign? Seems both pictures were taken at the same instant tho.

 

Things that make ya go hmmmm.

 

 

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Oh yes I am absolutly 100% sure the transparent red area isn't covering up he yeild sign because the fire truck was right behind it and it to is photo shoped out of the way while the firemen are all present an accounted for. But look at that chain link fence again. It is still there jut like the wire spools. Only it was also moved down aways in respective perspective of the spools.

 

 

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The very top photo in the post, was a close up of the spools and in it, you can see a cyclone fence with barbed wire at the top. In the pictures that follow, the spools appear to be photographed from a distance - at a slightly different angle. The fence appears to be further away, but that is an illusion caused by the angle from which the picture was taken.

 

Now as for the Fire Truck and Sign...???? They seem to be missing.

 

 

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Hmmm the camera angle eh... Well I guess that solves the question of moveing spools. But I am left once more with my original pondering. If those spools were there before the crash they must be some very heavy wire spools. I mean we're not talking two aught here.. But to me they look more like spools of black poly pipe. Oh well. Just gotta chaulk it up to one of those things we can't be certian about. Good catch on that camera angle...That photographer had to be either really close or almost perpindicular with the E ring with an exellent zoom lens. Like you said that leaves us with a missing fire truck and traffic sign to go along with the identical firemen. I think the two photos have about a seconds worth of time difference. When you follow the curve of smoke by the fireman above the cop car, you can still see it but the smoke has expanded just a bit. So yeah, both photos are with in one second of each other.

 

 

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Ahh... a couple of those spools would be heavy if they had enough wire on them ...the smaller ones go from 10,000 to 20,000 pounds - the larger ones up to 45000+. That black cable on the larger spool, is similar to what Utility Companies use when they upgrade phone and electrical services en banc. The cable weighs about 4.5lbs a foot, and it contains enough wire bundles (electrical, Phone, Network, TV cable) to do maybe a several hundred offices. At the time 9/11 occured the first phase of remodeling the pentagon, was going on in Wedge 1 - which was part of the area destroyed by the impact of the plane. Hmmm

 

"Wedge 1, approximately 1 million square feet, is the first fifth of above ground space in the Pentagon to undergo renovation. Structural demolition and the abatement of hazardous materials began in 1998, followed by the installation of new utilities and the build-out of tenant areas. A phased move-in of tenants began in February 2000, with the last tenant move-in completed February 6, 2003. The five floors of Wedge 1 are accessed by Corridors 3 and 4." (source:http://renovation.pentagon.mil/projects-W1.htm )

 

Seems odd to me - in retrospect, the terrorists chose to crash the plane into a unoccupied area of the building. Talk about a bunch of sorry dumb ass amatuers.... :D

 

Yet - look at what the government ultimately saved on the costs of Contruction Renovation Permits. I'd think getting a demolision permit would of been a whole lot easier.

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

Titorite,

 

I don't understand how rational educated people can over look the details. I get vilified for trying to point out the finer details and the issues they present(like WTC7,or the lack of any columns showing bending as the plane melts into building, or paper passports and cloth bandannas that survive plane explosions). Nobody seems to understand what conditioning is.

I think that the problem here is one of lack of experience.

I've "visited" my fair share of aircraft crashes during the past 38 years. What survives intact and what doesn't survive is somewhat amazing. At every incident scene you'll find paper items that are not consumed by the fireball...lots of it.

 

Back when I was an undergrad ( cr. 1975) I took up the gauntlet and investigated airline crashes in Santa Barbara County, CA. The purpose of my paper was to give local government plans for future disasters. I ended up keying on a DC-3 crash that occured in the mountains northeast of Santa Barbara Airport (SBA) in 1954. Because of my occupation I had access to all of the reports from local, state and federal investigators. I had the opportunity to read what they had to report 21 years before I started to look at the accident. While I was looking through the reports I came across the Coroner's Report submitted by the Deputy Sheriff who attended the scene. Lo and behold I discovered that I knew the Deputy who was then working as a police officer for the University of California Police Department at UC Santa Barbara. I asked him about the accident. It was amazing. He remembered the scene as if the accident happened "yesterday". It's not really amazing. You never forget the details of this sort of incident...never. I was just amazed at the time because of my relative youth. The accident occured when I was 4 years old and I couldn't recall events from 1954 with such clarity.

 

I'll set the scene for you. The DC-3 flew for 20 minutes from Santa Maria to Santa Barbara. The pilot made his final turn over Santa Ynez (where I'm posting from at this moment) toward SBA. It was foggy. He was ~500 feet below what today would below the slope indicator (they didn't have that in 1954 at SBA). The aircraft slammed into the mountain behind SBA at 150 knots and skidded across the top. The aircraft exploded into a fireball and virtually disintegrated. No one survived.

 

But the officer remembered that individual seats were scattered around the scene. Whole bodies belted into their seats, personal papers and effects were scatered around the scene. He specifically remembered a young army staff sergreant in uniform who was belted into his seat. He didn't have a mark on his body...yet he was dead. In the area of his seat he found his travel orders. His orders said that he was authorized for R&R from Seoul, Korea to Santa Barbara. His gold wedding ring, which flew off his hand on impact, was recovered without a scratch at the scene. The autopsy showed that his brain, due to the impact forces, was turned into brain cudgeon (pudding if you will).

 

This is typical of an aircraft crash. Things do survive that you otherwise would think couldn't survive.

 

That things survived the Pentagon impact and fireball in no way surprises me.

 

"Logic" in the case of physics isn't always what you think it is. Only direct experience in the form of witnessing a scene or doing a physical experiment determines what is logical.

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

Why not concentrate on subjects such as, why the second plane was allowed to hit tower number two. There was quite a difference in time.Is our air defense so laggardly they need a special invitation to deal with a threat, or were they ordered to "stand down," as reported?

 

There is more in this direction but this makes a start.

According to ol' Dick, there were 'plenty of warnings' in both cases, and reckoned (freudian slip?) that a 'missle' hit into the Pentagon - if it was a plane, why insinuate it's a missle, if it was a missle, why wasn't it shot down? Apparently, slow intelligence reports - so lemme get this right, the intelligence reports are slow, but the warnings are good, despite being based upon the intelligence reports... Burh.

Given the nature of conflicting reports from most sources, I'd say our best starting point is not to look at the most questionable, where everyone expects us to look, but the least questionable, the most straight-forward points - if anything is awry, it usually shows up in the place where you least expect it. A lie falls apart not where the thread is loose, but where there is supposed to integerity and there is none.

 

Firstly, what things ARE straight forward about the Pentagon and 9/11? Well, two planes hit into the twin towers, and an object at high speed smashed into the Pentagon. How did the planes get there (in at least the Twin Towers)? They were hijacked. How were they hijacked? By Hijackers armed with weapons. How did the hijackers bring weapons onto a plane? Our first inconsistancy - Were the metal detectors and X-ray scanners not up to scratch on that day? If the weapons weren't made of metal, then what do you suppose they used to threaten the people onboard? If you notice, planes have now have bullet-proof cabin doors. Why bullet-proof, if you have devices that are meant to detect guns? Bullets especially, given they are also metal (wood pellets anyone?).

 

Fast-forward further. Did the planes not become grounded straight after the the first tower attack? So why was the other plane half an hour later if it was not on the airport ground? Did it fly in circles for 30 minutes? If it left 15 minutes after the attack... well, it couldn't, the planes were grounded, right?

 

No-one noticed a plane flying in circles either. So what was it doing for half an hour?

 

The other consideration might be why did it wait half an hour to launch into the towers? We have already established it wasn't at the airport, as it would have been otherwise grounded. Air traffic control reported it missed with the other, so it must have been in the air at the time the call for all aircraft to be grounded. Perhaps their timing can be better explained if we roll on further...

 

Notice how the second plane explodes only mere minutes after the first one... despite crashing half an hour later. What would you suppose would cause it to explode half an hour earlier than compared to the first plane? If it was by chain-reaction, why did it take minutes before reaction? If it was timed, how did the hijackers time it to sync? It would certainly explain why they were half an hour inbetween. But why destroy the towers in sync?

 

Perhaps if I was not tired, I would dig through more. But now is not the time, and I must retire to my sleep.

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

Apparently, slow intelligence reports - so lemme get this right, the intelligence reports are slow, but the warnings are good, despite being based upon the intelligence reports... Burh.

It's pretty easy to look at the details of the event in hind sight. You now know, after the fact, both what happened and at least some of the details of the intelligence that was available. That's the easy part. The hard part is receiving intelligence reports from stations worldwide in the months and days before the incident, prioritizing them, evaluating the source of each item for reliability, evaluating each intelligence item, providing a threat analysis for each item, forwarding what you determine to be actionable threats to the proper agency and hoping that you got it right. The CIA might have 100 or more "terrorist" items come across the wire each day. The FBI and DHS get an equal number of terrorist threat reports each day. That's a lot of information to digest and they don't always get it right. And at the time leading up to 9-11 it was a federal crime for a federal intelligence agency to share intelligence with state or municipal government agencies. It had been that way since ~1978 thanks to the US Congress.

I think that a big part ofthe problem that conspiracy theorists have is two fold. The first problem is the one that I alluded to earlier today in another post. They lack any experience in the area about which they are opining. They've never actually worked in an intelligence agency thus they don't really have a good idea about what intelligence agencies do or what their actual capabilities are. The second problem relates to the first issue. The only "experience" that they have is from watching Hollywood versions of Spy vs. Spy, from spy novels and far too many Internet versions of the same. They've bought into the theory that all USMC colonels are rogue criminals and all spooks are psychopathic killers who were somehow recruited from mental institutions. My friend, that is a load of, in a word, crap. Admittedly, in movies and novels it makes for good entertainmment but it doesn't reflect the real world.

 

As I look at the multitude of conspiracy theories about 9-11 put forward by people who are sifting the minutia I'm struck with the fact that by sifting with a magnifying glass they miss out on the big picture...probably because they don't want to see the big picture.

 

Here'sthe big picture. The President and Vice President are not special operators. If you buy into the idea that they were somehow behind a grand conspiracy to murder over 3,000 people you can't conclude they personally set bombs, hired Kamakazi pilots, bought off entire corps of police officers and fire fighters, taxi cab drivers, city mayors, etc. Someone had to do that for them. And that's a lot of people to recruit, convince to commit mass murder, participate in a grand cover-up...and to remain absolutely silent on the subject. The President, Vice President and their lead special operator would have to have bet their lives on the silence of all of those people.

 

The problem is that in today's Washington, DC a "secret" is only a secret until two people know the secret. By sun-up the next day the secret is on the front page of the Washington Post.

 

I personally don't bite on Internet conspiracy theories, not because conspiracies don't exist, but because virtually every conspiracy theory that I've ever seem on the Internet is put forth by people who appear to be hysterical fanatics. They scream in ALL CAPS to get their points across, they accuse anyone who doubts their assessment of being "disinformation agents", they validate their theory by referencing the thoughts of other conspiracy theorists (who may or may not be sockpuppets), they run with illogical conclusions based on data that by their own written words it is obvious that they don't understand and they obsess over the minutia.

 

And there's a conspiracy theory for just about everything that happens in Washington. I can almost guarantee you that when the next public official dies there will be a conspiracy theory within hours of the first report...and hundreds of people will accept thetheory as valid...s/he was murdered by the MIB's because (fill in the theory here).

 

If there is a conspiracy there has to be conspirators. And for someone to buy into being a participant in the mass murder of several thousand people there has to be a reason. Dozens if not hundreds of people have to be recruited to pull off this particular conspiracy. They all have to be committed to silence. They all have to remain silent. I've yet to see a single conspiracy theorist who has addressed these real world problems.

 

So, who are all of these actors, who recruited them, how were they all...everyone of them...successfully convinced to participate in the slaughter and remain silent and how did they convince several pilots to commit suicide-murder for The Cause? How did they convince hundreds of civilian employees and military personnel working at the Pentagon to go along with the idea that the building was struck by a non-existent aircraft - and remain silent?

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

I would like to know why RMT felt it neccessary the lie and mislead to prove a point, especialy about a trageady of this magnitude. I have not lied. I have only raised my many doubts and concerns because they are legion and when they are all taken in context they lead to only one conclusion an individual must reach for his or herself. The truly skeptical does not suspend his skeptism for the government in the name of patriotism.

 

Darby, To spesificly address you for one moment. I know you are right and that it is not impossible for things to survive a plane crash no matter how improbbable I personaly believe it to be. SO Since you yourself seem to have some experiance with plane crashs and since I KNOW you are and honest man I would like your opinion of the nose in nose out footage. IF you haven't seen it you can check it out here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeIVD5wT4KE ... Can the nose of a jet plane crash into a building and emerge out of the otherside 100% intact? I say no! But I have my own VHS tape I converted to DVD and I have seen it for myself as they above have pointed it out. And Since your an honest skeptic I would like your opinion on the descrepency or a vaild explaination why it is logical.

 

Sincerly your friend,

 

Rustyrale.

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

I would like to know why RMT felt it neccessary the lie and mislead

This coming from the guy who accused me of committing libel and slander against him??? You are skating on thin ice, buddy. Now it is YOU who are committing libel against me! I told you I was done with you... and let me tell you something: If you continue to drag my name through the mud, in a pitiful attempt to make it look like you "won" this argument, YOU WILL BE HEARING FROM MY LAWYER!

 

I have not lied.

Did you manipulate the truth? That is a form of lying, and there is predominant evidence to suggest this may be true. If you know what is good for you, you will move on to some other "victim". Your "crusade", at least my part in it, ends right here, right now... got me? My point continues to be made about titorite and the assumptions he makes. Just look at the assumption he made about me in the first quote in this reply. Need I say more?

RMT

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

Go ahead and get your lawyer. Your petty threats do not intimidate me. You presented two differnt photographs that we're in reality the same photograph altered to look differnt. You presented a lie. You lied! Then you insulted me and threatened me. I clearly called everyones attention to the fact that the firemen occupied the same positions while the firetruck and yeild sign had been edited out.

 

You also admited my correctness about how to determine dents in the taxi cab photo.

 

Rustyrale is my first screen name, titorite is a secondary screen name.

 

So why did you dodge my question RMT? Why did you present photos that are clearly fake to prove your point? Why lie?

 

One more thing..I only accused you of libel not slander...if your not smart enough to know the difference I'm sure your lawyer can educate you to the difference between the two.

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

Go ahead and get your lawyer.

I'd be happy to. Please provide your name and address. You can do so via PM.

 

You presented a lie. You lied!

That is libel. Did it ever occur to you that I was using photos from someone else, and whether or not ANY photo was modified, that it was NOT ME? You are awfully dangerous with you accusations, and yet you pretend to be holier than thou and accusing ME of libel?

 

Then you insulted me and threatened me.

Please show me where I "threatened" you. And as far as I know, there is no law against insults. I'll insult you all I want, if I want. God knows you certainly have insulted me, and another member of my family.

 

So why did you dodge my question RMT? Why did you present photos that are clearly fake to prove your point? Why lie?

More libel. Did you not take me seriously? If you really are not afraid of legal recourse, then please present your name and address in a PM to me.

You wanna keep this up? It can get a lot worse for you...believe me. We can take this thread sooooo far off topic, and it would not be a good thing for you.

 

RMT

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

The guy hates the government, doesn't trust it, says it kills it's own people and after a week of arguing with you the guy runs and hides behind .... THE GOVERNMENT. Just like CigMan. You da king RMT.

 

BTW, if you are on the internet, the US military invented it. It means you SUPPORT the US military. Data gleamed from YOUR PERSONAL USAGE STATISTICS will help make the internet fast and more reliable.

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

What ever liar! You wanna peice of me come and get it. I am not about to give you my personal information so you can post it around where ever you like. You may take me for a fool but I assure you that your only fooling yourself.

 

It does not matter if you got those photos from other sites. The one is an obvious fake and you attempted to pass it off as genuine. Very underhanded on your part. Now you wanna cover that up and your threatening legal action against me to do it. WELL RMT DO IT! Get your lawyer! You will not intimidate me. You lied, got caught, now you would like to sweep it under the rug. Ya shouldn't of done it in the first place.

 

The dishonor is yours.

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

Bogz,

 

AARPA NET. And CERN is responsible for the modern internet as we all now it with HTTP being invented at that institution.

 

The internet is a wonderful exchange of information. Its like a genie. Ask a question, rub a serach engine and it will answer your question. I LOVE THE NET! It proves the point of the system being its own worst enemy.

 

Also I do not fear the government monitering. Thier is nothing that I can do about it. We are all monitered. Perhaps you are unaware of the patriot act and the current war on terror?

 

Tell me though, how am I hideing behnd the government? I am not the one threatening legal action. RMT is. I have nothing to fear for calling a spade a spade. RMT though is laughable in his attempts to bully me and if he follows through I would be happy to file a counter suit for draging me into the ordeal....I would even invite Rusty and Falzon since RMT has confused us for being the same person...

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

What ever liar!

Libel.

 

I am not about to give you my personal information so you can post it around where ever you like.

Translation: I am too afraid of getting in more trouble with the law to allow you to pursue legal action against me. I've been in jail once already.

 

It does not matter if you got those photos from other sites.

Evidence for libel case: Admitting he is aware I did not source potentially false material. It certainly does matter...in a court of law!

 

You lied, got caught, now you would like to sweep it under the rug.

More libel. And far from sweeping it under the rug, I am challenging you to PROVE I LIED. That is what you will have to do if this goes to court. Maybe YOU should check with a lawyer! :confused:

I guess it is time to settle this by a vote from the readership... because I am really getting weary of your schtick.

 

RMT

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

From: RainmanTime

 

You really had better knock off the nonsense, buddy. You may think this is a game, but accusing me of lying when you have no evidence can be trouble.

 

Please do not PM me RMT.

 

You did present a false photograph as proof of your point. As intelligent as you are with the amount of time you spend debunking 911 I doubt you could convince anyone that you didn't know the photo was a fake. It only took me a few moments to spot the shadow and the firemen. You lied.

 

The evidence is on this thread. I already archived it in case you get any froggy ideas of deleting it before you "contact" your lawyer. LOL. Your attempts to bully and intimidate me are wasted. If you had not attempted to mislead people and present false evidence I wouldn't be able to call you a liar. But you did and I AM!

 

Next time you should be honest an avoid the risk of being exposed for what you are.

 

 

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POLL: Who achieved their goal the best?

 

This is usually the most democratic way to find out what readers think about two sides of a debate. So we will take a poll of the readers to see who thinks titorite did a good job of proving his "inconsistencies" in the official Pentagon 9-11 story, as compared to those who think myself (along with help from Darby and others) sufficiently showed there are no reasons to think the items called out by titorite are inconsistencies.

 

Who made their case better for the allegations of a 9-11 Pentagon conspiracy?

 

I believe that titortie conclusively showed that there are meaningful and relevant inconsistencies in the Pentagon evidence he pointed to.

 

I believe that RMT (and others) have sufficiently proven that none of the items titorite calls "inconsistences" are necessarily inconsistent with the official Pentagon 9-11 story.

 

Here is your chance folks. If you really think titorite has succeeded in "changing your mind" (don't forget that Freudian Slip) then you can now cast your vote!!

 

RMT

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

A vote by readship HAHAHAHA OH man thats funny..too funny. What happened to you getting a lawyer? Do it! Seriously DO IT! If you have any grounds for a case a suppena will get all the info you need and legaly obligate me to show up in court. A vote by readership...LOL!

 

You do not scare me bully.

 

The evidence of your lie is on page 19 where I talk about your photos with JustLurking.

 

Call your lawyer like you threatened me with. Whats stopping you? DO IT! Didn't you accuse me of libel AND SLANDER! Call your lawyer! Call him. Don't be afraid to follow through with your petty threat. Do it!

 

 

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Re: POLL: Who achieved their goal the best?

 

Is your poll anymore scientific than the poll you ragged on by MSNBC?

 

Come on liar, call you lawyer! Forget that pointless poll. You accused me of libel and slander. I would love to address your libel and slander charges in court! Please do it. Follow through with your bully threats.

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

You did present a false photograph as proof of your point. As intelligent as you are with the amount of time you spend debunking 911 I doubt you could convince anyone that you didn't know the photo was a fake. It only took me a few moments to spot the shadow and the firemen. You lied.

 

The evidence is on this thread. I already archived it in case you get any froggy ideas of deleting it before you "contact" your lawyer. LOL. Your attempts to bully and intimidate me are wasted. If you had not attempted to mislead people and present false evidence I wouldn't be able to call you a liar. But you did and I AM!

 

Next time you should be honest an avoid the risk of being exposed for what you are.

Hot air. Note how sure he sounds of himself, yet he is not willing to allow the legal system to take care of this issue.

RMT

 

 

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Re: 911 was an inside job

 

HTTP is a top layer protocol. That's like saying the US Military built the car and CERN customized the interior to look nice and the only thing I care about is the inside of the car therefore CERN made the whole thing.

 

If you drive the car, you still support the guy who made it.

 

By the way, ARPA. Don't you know their history? HTTP was submitted for "consideration" to ARPA, in other words, uncle sam.

 

IF you want HTTP like graphics there is something called RIP-TERM and FidoNet. It uses the PSTN (public telephone network) to route data. It's "military and govenrment" free except for the telephone. I know at least 1 person who still uses it for news groups.

 

HTTP might feel like the busiest protocol on the net but it's I doubt it's a TCP based protocol, it more likely UDP. BitTorrent ring any bells?

 

 

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