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Time-travel Paradoxes!


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TT-0

 

I think you know very well the answers to the questions you have asked. You just want to guage the quality of our replies, or just remind us that we SHOULD be up to speed on our constitutional rights and responsibilities.

 

A young person should want to survive and live for better days ahead. At some point, however, an older person will realize, especially in the face of disaster, that better days are NOT on the horizon.......ever. What you are forcasting for 95% of the present population is 20 years of hell followed by survivors in the rubble. I've already put in my 40 year shift of work and worry. Why should we fret over politics on our way to slaughter? Isn't that like telling the Captain of the Titanic, that all he has to do to save the ship is to back up really fast after the collision?

 

It was obvious 5 to 10 YEARS ago that we've been SOLD OUT. For us, the game is over. I should offer an excuse for apathy? It should do for a reason at least. Actually TT-O, maybe in you we can see that eventually SOMEBODY finds their friggin guts and puts an end to the madness.

 

 

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Don't give up shadow. even in the midst of caos there is always hope. our end doesnt have to be like his end.

there are some people even as we speak that are actively making a time machine.

If this outcome for us would actually be true we have time on are side now.

the outcome of this time is UNKNOWN.

If there is one timetraveler.. there are many.

we can change the future, Shadow.

next comes the brave souls that are willing to try.

as he said when he uses his machine that going to another time line or dieing is both equally accepted.

How brave are we? I am not afraid of dieing.

I have done it before.

When the time comes....I will go.

I will be willing to go and make it right.

 

[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 18 December 2000).]

 

 

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Pamela,

 

Thanks for the encouraging words. I do lean to the dark side. It comes from hours, days, and years of "partial successes".

 

I'm sorry to hear that you keep dieing all over the place. Fortunately I haven't had a lot of practice at it lately. But do keep up the good work, you are the heart & soul of this board. I rank no higher than jestser and deservidly so.

 

 

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I think it was interesting as I was reading my NEWSWEEK I received today on page 55. in the article "36 days:The Fallout"

were these words in a box amongst all the

little boxes of pictures.

"After this story,

what could come

next to keep the

spoiled media

beast interested?

civil war? "

 

just had to share that with you.

sincerely,

pamela

 

 

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last night i felt terrible,and had a fever.i fell asleep at 9PM and slept until 2PM this afternoon.

during my sleep,i had a dream of me,in my English Class.my english teacher brought her child to school.her child had been a government experiment gone wrong.they had tried to combine oranges and a baby to make an orange baby.her baby had orange hair with a blue stripe down the middle,and had orange skin and orange-blue spiral eyes.my grandmother was also in the dream and she said we had all came from potatos anyway.my mother was there too and she said 'why are there still potatos here if we came from them,and why would we be eating them?'

then i woke up...

 

is it possible to have acid flashbacks while your asleep??

 

 

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"Paradox", as an English word, has it's origins in Latin and Greek.

 

But alas, it is still just a word in any language, regardless of how it is spoken, ancient or modern. And thus a verbal utterance that represents the conveyance of a concept. As all words are.

 

Generally, it refers to the "idea" of the existence of a problem that has no solution.

 

But again alas, this is nothing but an invention of the mind of man. Nothing that actually occurs in the Universe.

 

There are no paradoxes in the Universe.

 

The so called "grandfather" paradox has not, does not, and cannot ever occur simply because the situation that defines it is not possible in the first place. There is no past where/when your "grandfather" is "alive" for you to ever encounter. Any more than there is a future where your "grandson" travels back from to encounter you.

 

If there is "Time Travel", it requires much more sophisticated concepts than this simple non-existant "problem".

 

And...

 

The so called "twins" paradox is actually not a paradox at all once one understands the idiosyncrasies of Relativity. Many think they do, but few actually do. Those who consider the "twins" paradox to actually BE a paradox, are among those who don't.

 

Hint: Think about what constitutes a "year", as opposed to watching the hands of your wristwatch move. Remember, "year" is again a word that conveys the concept of a single revolution of the Earth around the Sun.

 

Both "twins, the Earthbound one AND the travelling one will still have lived in a Universe where the Earth went around the Sun the SAME number of times.

 

The traveler's BIOLOGICAL clock would run slower, as do physical clocks under the circumstances, but the Earth will have orbited the Sun the SAME number of times from BOTH of their points of view! Even while the traveler's watch ran slower.

 

Time dilation, as a proven effect of differing relative velocities may be an unusual idiosyncracy inherent in the properties of relativity, but...

 

There is no paradox here.

 

And it most certainly does not constitute Time travel in and of itself.

 

There is no paradox ANYWHERE in the Universe for that matter.

 

How could there be?

 

The very concept is itself absurd. A mind game. A modernist mythology. Right up there with Jupiter governing the Universe from Mt. Olympus, or Noah's Ark.

 

You believe in the "Great Flood" perhaps. Gee, where did all the water come from? (Descended from nowhere out of space?) Where did it go? (Evaporated back into nothingness into space?) Do you have any idea how much water it would take to cover the Earth up to the top of Mt. Everest and beyond? Or how thick the cloud cover would have to be that contained the water that constituted the rain that had to have fallen to make a flood THAT big?

 

About as much as it takes to drown the idea that "paradoxes" actually exist, from my calculation.

 

Peace.

 

 

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DaViper

 

Very interesting argument but I have a couple of questions. You described the word paradox as, “…it refers to the "idea" of the existence of a problem that has no solution.” Actually, the #1 definition I read in the American Heritage Dictionary is “…a seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true”,

 

Also, what exactly is your definition of “time travel”? I was taught that time travel is strictly a local observation that can only be measured by the experience of an individual or single particle. Under that definition, the “twin paradox” (time dilation due to acceleration or gravity) and even sleeping can be considered time travel. You appear to be arguing against dematerialization and/or spacelike trips under the limits of special relativity in a single worldline.

 

I do agree that the “grandfather paradox” is not possible simply because the classic problem is presented as an observer’s issue magnified to a universal issue. Your statements about observation are correct when you isolate the experiences to a single worldline. However, the reason there are no paradoxes is because the universe doesn’t care how we react to its handy-work. In a Universe made up of infinite worldliness (superuniverse), everything is possible and has a 100% probability, therefore…no paradoxes.

 

“You believe in the "Great Flood" perhaps. Gee, where did all the water come from?”

 

I believe the explanation for the “great flood” stories originate with the changes that occurred near the Mediterranean at the end of the last ice age. Even on this worldline, there is a great deal of evidence to support the fact that sea levels did change radically in isolated areas worldwide. I also heard someplace that if the ice mass on Antarctica melted today, sea level worldwide would rise about 100 feet. I’m not exactly sure that’s true but still… Mt. Everest might be a bit of a stretch.

 

I do however agree with you that there are no physical paradoxes but for the opposite reasoning.

 

Peace to you also.

 

 

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Anyone ever heard of "Pangia"

it referrs to when the earth, or "Gia" was once pne singl large body of land.

 

when I find more info on this latter, I will edit this post, and include the links. meanwile if anyone else wishes to make any additional comments about pangia, and how the water vovered the remaining 3/4 of the land mass around the geosphere, please by all means, share with us what you have to offer.

 

What do you suppose would happen during the next "Great Flood" now that the former Pangia is broken into the current continetal land structures of today's earth?

~just a thought~

 

p)'i4q4

 

 

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That's right Time, I also heard that origionally the continent of Africa was connected to America by a connecting land mass. I believe that's part of the Atlantis theory, that it was the connecting land. I know there are some incredible things underwater off of Biminy. (can't spell it or find it) There are huge greek collums with huge hands at the top holding some sort of ball. Also what looks like roads made of hand cut flat stones that would break a fork lift. What I would'nt give to time travel to before that sunk and see it it all it's glory. It's must have been beautiful beyond comprehension.

 

 

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I had a flashback once, not too long ago, just a few seconds ago in fact. It had to be a flashback. I saw a former Governor of Texas, Bush I believe, saying "I wish I were a dictator but this is not a dictatorship!" Also he mentioned something to the effect of "You are aware of the fact that any resession that may come along next year or so, is Bill's fault, really." FWEEEEET! Hey pal, can I intrest you in a little tax cut? Very popular in this election year you know. (Hey babe you wanna count some ballots? Your dimples are soooo cute." "Chad, I think I might be pregnant.") If I'm laid off do I still get my multimillion dollar tax cut, huh Gorge? Huh Huh? George? GEORGE!!??........".just wait your turn sir, the President Elect is busy playing with his yo-yo right now." This only thing missing out of national politics righ now is a Ryder rental truck full of whoopie cushions.

 

Yes, speaking of The Flood. The real flood can't hold a candle to the flood of bull**** that is commin down the pike these days. Are they TRYING to whizz us off, or do they deserve an Oscar for acting as thought they were. There are other possible explainations. Like Terminal Stupidity. Or the desire for population reduction (you). Or how about creepy aliens, time traveling spooks, or maybe even that half spoiled turkey sandwich you had for lunch.

 

Of coarse the screamingly hysterical part of it is that they act like we ain't supposed to notice. Right. "Waiter, check please!"

 

 

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DaViper,

Just because you cannot figuere out where the water came from for the Great Flood

is not a good enough reason to conclude that it never took place.

 

In the ancient lore and legend of every culture you will find a story of a disasterous flood. These accounts vary but in distant parts of the world these stories agree on one point. far back in history there was a catacylmsmic flood which wiped out all but a handful of people.

From the indians of north and south america to the Islanders of the Pacific and from the chinese to atleast 40 aborigional races we find the elements of a great flood described.

Geologists of today all over the Earth find a layer of sediment which gives evidence of a worldwide flood.

 

There are several different theories of where the water might have come from.

Here is the one I have heard:

The Earth had quite a different climate before and after the flood.

for in Geneisis 2:5-6 it states that the lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth...but there went up a mist from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.

They argued that Genesis 1:6 described God seperating the waters on the earth from the waters above the Earth. which could describe a canopy of water vapor.Our Earth could have been in effect a giant canopy enclosed garden watered by gentle mists which came out of the ground from the reservoirs of water below the surface.

If the Earth before the flood had been surrounded by a canopy of water vapor above the Troposphere it would have compressed the air beneath and raised the average atmospheric pressure, just how much would depend on how much water the canopy contained.

This increased pressure could have resulted in a greater oxidation rate, a much more efficient metabolism and stronger, healthier people.

The sheilding of water vapor canopy could have eliminated almost all genetic mutation from the harmful solar radiation.

there would be benefits of living under increased atmospheric pressure. During the aquanaut program it was discovered a cut on a aquanauts hand healed completely in 24 hours while submerged in a diving bell.

 

back then the current land mass was joined together in a hugh continent.

The Earth before the flood was a single land mass riding on a blanket of superheated steam and with an overhead curtain of water vapor protecting it from harmful solar rays.

 

After the flod the vapor canopy was gone the Earths climate was changed.

Atmospheric pressure dropped to what it is today.

without the water vapor canopy the Earth received more radiation from the sun and genetic mutations occured. mans lifespan was greatly reduced. and they obviosly didnot live as long after the flood.

 

the other theory that goes with it sometimes is "the fountains of the deep" were also let lose.Gen 7:11 Which combined with the collapse of the water vapor canopy. produced a great amount of water.the ripping apart of the crust would have triggered tsunamis of unparalleled magnitude, sweeping the Earth with walls of water from the existing oceans.

The initial rupture of the earths crust would have spewed a tremendous jet of super heated steam high above the earths ionosphere. the vapor blanket resting on the air above the Earth would have been overwhelmed by the intensity and heat of this supersonic blast and would have collapsed as sheets of worldwide rain.

The jet of water which gushed high above the earths atmosphere would have encountered frigid temperatures converting the water almost instantly to ice crystals.

When the water vapor canopy which covered the Earth up to that point collapsed in rain, ending the green house effect, the temperatures on earth would have been reduced to much the same as they are today. immediately after the flood, the ice crystals formed high above the earths stratosphere would have fallen, dumping immense quantities of ice on the earths polar regions and northern latiitudes. This would explain an enigma which has long perplexed the discovery of animals which had been quick frozen in siberia and alaska some still with undigested food in their stomaches and mouths.

there had to be an abrupt and extremely sudden change in temperature, from near tropical to extreme cold within a matter of minutes.

I kept this in my mind. and a couple of years ago i saw an article in the newspaper where scientists had found a couple miles long of watervapor in the upper atmosphere that was forming over a specific area and they didnt know what it was doing up there. If i find the article i will post it I did cut it out and save it.

nobody knows for sure where the water came from and can only theorize but there was plenty of evidence that it took place. I have read several scientific theories of the water vapor canopy. I could go on and on but i just dont have time. I have several books that mention it. I just pulled a few things out of the books for you to think on.This is just one of several theories I have heard.

 

sincerely,

pamela

 

 

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Wow, what can be added to that! I do recall reading that "radiolaria", a fossilized form of tiny sea life has been found in layers of dirt at high elevations in the darndest places around the earth. I know nothing of bibical things but when you find petrofied itty bitty fishies in mountain ranges, something incredible happened involving a whole lot of water.

 

 

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Well ,I found the article but unfortunately I didnot cut out the date with it.

It was in the Repository Newspaper . the author is Randolph E. Schmid

associate press writer. here it is word for word:

 

VAPOR FLOWS FOUND IN THE ATMOSPHERE

___________________________________

WASHINGTON- Massive rivers of vapor, some carrying as much water as the Amazon, have been discovered in the lower atmosphere.

Reginald E. Newell, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said thursday he was surprised to find the flows while analyzing satellite data.

His findings are reported in Geophysical Research Letters, published by the American Geophysical Union.

 

A half-dozen vapor rivers carry water from the equator toward the poles in relatively narrow streams, Newell explained in a telephone interview.

 

"I expected to see things following air masses, which usually have much larger horizontal widths. The fact that it's concentrated was a surprise to us. " said Newell. The flows "look like a river," he said.

The newly discovered rivers do follow these general principles, but move the moisture in narrow streams rather than having it spread out over a large air mass.

 

They seem to generally trend toward the poles, Newell explained, though he has found a couple of cases in which the stream encounters a typhoon,"gets entangled in itself and goes back equatorwards."

 

The rivers also display waves in their movement, he said, though why this should occur is not clear.

 

The researchers calculated the length of some of these rivers of vapor at as much as 4,800 miles with a width of 420 to 480 miles.

 

What does this mean to the world's weather and climate? Newell and his associates are trying to figure that out.

"We haven't solved the relation between these rivers and fronts, highs and lows and the rest of the synoptic (weather) pattern," Newell said.

 

 

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Morkie!

 

Hair extracted. I'm much better now. Thank you.

 

Hear no evil. see no evil, speak no evil. WHEN will I EVER learn?

 

WE do digress from time travel don't we. The earth is going to fall over any minute now........scratch that.........any TIME now.

 

My theory on Earth Changes was dismissed because it "rested on shakey ground". I too will wait for a time.

 

 

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Well as far as I can tell, it seems that only two of us here are willing to answer TT_0's questions. (Three - Shadow answered at least one question.) What's wrong? Are you afraid of being judged in some way? Most of the people who post here on this forum seem to enjoy playing around (and sometimes bickering and putting each other down). So what is the problem? It seems as though when you find out someone is observing you and says so, you clam up. Yes I know that implies that you believe his claims or you don't think he is worth responding to. Yet most of you will take the time to bicker. You could just tell him that you don't want to answer any of his questions. You can't even do that instead you will ignore those questions and write a lengthy reply to someone else just to get your point of view across. Well that is what TT_0 is asking for. Why do you find so hard to answer him? It implies that you believe him more then your willing to admit. And you don't like the idea of being classified by an observer from a future time. I think he is right, on the whole, "sheep" - bickering sheep. Ok, you can blast me by being honest in answering TT_0 questions. (That is the only basting that is acceptable.)

 

 

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Hi djayr42!

Actually there was another man who answered all of the questions and sent them to me to forward to timetravler_0 in private.

which I did.

wether you beleived he was real or not,

I think it was only common curtesy to answer the questions after he answered ours. and that had to take a lot of his time to answer all of our questions and debating on how much he wanted to share. when every word you say can have consequences.

Its no big deal ,he was just curious about how we feel about things as we are about him.

Maybe people are just too paranoid.

It is kind of interesting though...is this how we would treat a person from another world if we ever met one?

Well anyway..hope everyone has a great Christmas!!!!!!

sincerely,

Pamela

 

 

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TT-O

I'm surprised that they haven't cought you yet. I'd give dollars-to-donuts that the US military is into time travel already....since the mid sixties I'd guess. Not that its any of my business, nor do I want it to be. Maybe they don't care. Maybe there is already intertime treaties of noninterference.

 

If it doesn't make it less convient for the rich to ripp-off the masses it could well remain a non-issue.

 

 

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