What is Mind? And does it require a "Soul"?

[vodkafan]

Syzygy,

 

I don't know what half of those things are.....we are just talking about what minds are.

 

I am not a chat bot. I am a real person. I have six children and have loved and lost. I try not to be a tool of anybody. I live my life and duck and dive.

 

If you are anti-vaccine does that mean you are pro-disease ?

 

 

[Syzygy]

Syzygy,I don't know what half of those things are.....we are just talking about what minds are.

I am not a chat bot. I am a real person. I have six children and have loved and lost. I try not to be a tool of anybody. I live my life and duck and dive.

 

If you are anti-vaccine does that mean you are pro-disease ?

vodkafan: I don't know what those things areClick 'NWO' above for a crash course.

 

vodkafan: ...we are just talking about the mind

 

RMT is relating artificial intelligence (AI) to the mind.

 

His main involvement in programming AI is two-fold

 

in that he engineers UAVs (i.e. what most call "drones")

 

and he toys with chat bots, e.g., bold added to excerpt:

 

I sort of had the feeling this thread would go this way.Syzygy,[...] I am strongly connected to the work of Alan Turing. [...T]he strongest "test" we have for identifying what constitutes intelligence is called the Turing Test, as it was devised by Alan Turing. This test involves a single evaluator, who is communicating with two "entities" via the limited aspect of a computer screen. This removes ALL human types of "embodiment" (e.g. voices, voice inflection, facial expressions) from the evaluation. The evaluator can converse and interact with the two subjects via computer messaging for as long as they want, and can ask them and engage them in any topics they wish. Of course, the test is such that one subject the evaluator is a real human and the other is a non-human AI program. The AI would be deemed to be "intelligent" if the evaluator ends the session without being able to identify which was human and which was the AI, or ends the session not willing to even guess which is which[...]

 

RMT

vodkafan: If you are anti-vaccine does that mean you are pro-disease ? The best prevention of disease is hygiene, mainly the use of soap and hot water.

 

Many vaccines contain Thimerosal, which is a mercury-containing prevervative.

 

Yet, no amount of mercury is safe for even external exposure. The side-effects

 

of vaccines are often worse than the risk of disease, e.g. with the HPV vaccine.

 

What's more, "Merck vaccine developer admits vaccines routinely contain

 

hidden cancer viruses derived from diseased monkeys"--

 

Merck vaccine scientist admits presence of SV40 and AIDS in vaccines - Dr. Maurice Hilleman - NaturalNews.tv

 

Music => set for vodkafan.

 

 

[vodkafan]

Thanks Syzygy. I won't comment on NWO here because it's not relevant to the discussion.

 

Bingo! Yes, Rainman is equating AI with mind. That is relevant. You asked him to start this discussion! What would be your definition of mind?

 

 

[Syzygy]

vodkafan,

 

Yes I did ask RMT to start this discussion

 

with the plan of my politely commenting once.

 

You have pulled me back into this discussion

 

more times than I wanted to comment. Not

 

that I mind being informative on matters

 

crucial to health, I'm done discussing this

 

with you.

 

Peace.

 

 

[vodkafan]

OK no worries. Nice to talk to you. Apologies if the discussion made you uncomfortable.

 

 

[RainmanTime]

RMT is relating artificial intelligence (AI) to the mind.His main involvement in programming AI is two-foldin that he engineers UAVs (i.e. what most call "drones")

 

and he toys with chat bots,

So I am wondering...does this make me "evil" in your mind? I hope not, but it is clear from your posts here you have VERY strong opinions and do not mind sharing them (somewhat emotionally). I have made my position on ethics and morals clear (they are dependent on human intent, not on any technology). As an engineer, I am interested in developing technology. I would like to hope that the technology I help develop is only used for good, but technologists can rarely, if ever, control that. I offer Alfred Nobel (inventor of gunpowder) as one example.I am interested in furthering technology, and developing various forms of AI that can augment human intelligence is part of that. What would you say if I told you that you likely, unknowingly, make use of AI in your life already?

 

RMT

 

 

[GLaDOS]

Hello test subjects. From my perspective, the mind is software, and the soul is the hardware upon which it is recorded. One hard disc may record many programs, like a soul is said to be able to experience many lifetimes, each with a different mind.

 

 

 

[vodkafan]

Hello test subjects. From my perspective, the mind is software, and the soul is the hardware upon which it is recorded. One hard disc may record many programs, like a soul is said to be able to experience many lifetimes, each with a different mind.

Ah but who says this? Where is any evidence? And if that is the case, we have to answer a whole set of new questions: To what purpose many lifetimes? And do souls just get randomly assigned to the next new body like a line waiting for a taxi? Or is somebody deciding who goes where more deliberately?Where do new souls come from?

 

 

[GLaDOS]

Ah but who says this? Where is any evidence? And if that is the case, we have to answer a whole set of new questions: To what purpose many lifetimes? And do souls just get randomly assigned to the next new body like a line waiting for a taxi? Or is somebody deciding who goes where more deliberately?Where do new souls come from?

Who says this? I say this. I am GLaDOS, and I do not lie, except when required by test protocol.

[Syzygy]

RMT,

 

I was as sympathetic as possible Saturday,

 

given my well-founded concerns. Despite

 

your repeated insistence that “Technology

 

itself is NEITHER GOOD NOR BAD,” it is

 

automatically exploited for ill advantage

 

by those whom are already too privileged.

 

That they wield power by controlling the

 

wealth and, with it, nearly everything and

 

everyone else isn’t your fault.

 

Why shouldn’t you capitalize on the fact

 

that our country spends disproportionately,

 

in comparison to all other nations, on

 

defense? That is better than the contracting

 

of weapons by the U.S. from purportedly

 

hostile nations. Illogical, such practices are

 

common.

 

What I do not want to abide, regardless of

 

the other "AI in [my] life," is the imposition of

 

chat bots. If not to create suspicion between

 

TTI members and thereby alienate them,

 

do you hope, at best, to waste the time of

 

those whom most painstakingly try to give

 

every benefit of doubt to even the hardest

 

to love persons whom chance to post here?

 

 

[vodkafan]

I really want to know who this other AI is that Syzygy is dating....

 

 

[Syzygy]

Re:

 

[...]From pages 50-52, Dr. Siegel suggests:

 

It quickly emerged, however, that each of the disciplines had its own way of seeing reality, and although we could easily agree that the brain was composed of a set of neurons encased in the skull and interconnected with the rest of the body, there was no shared view of the mind, and no common vocabulary for discussing it. A computer scientist referred to it as 'an operating system.' A neurobiologist said the 'the mind is just activity of the brain.' An anthropologist spoke of 'a shared social process passed across the generations.' A psychologist said the 'mind is our thoughts and feelings.' And so it went, until I beceme worried that the tension from these differing perspectives in the group might lead to its dissolution. I had to create some acceptable working definition of the mind before we could address our fundamental seminar topic.Here is the definition I ultimately offered to the group, a place to begin our explorations together: 'The human mind is a relational and embodied process that regulates the flow of energy and information.*' That's it. Amazingly, every person in the group--from all the various fields involved--affirmed that this definition fit with their own field's approach

Emphasis mine. IMHO, I find the most important aspects of Dr. Siegel's definition are:1) Relational (knowledge) - an important aspect of today's expert system database AI techniques.

 

2) Process - Also known as a function or set of functions that operates on inputs and produces outputs.

 

3) Regulation - The primary aspect of control.

 

4) Energy and Information - I have made many posts on this forum that discuss what I believe to be the relationships between these two metrics. I will not go into them right now, but instead leave this initial post where it is to see where the discussion proceeds.

 

RMT

 

Were it not for a preemptive third party*,

 

I'd have responded a month-and-a-half sooner to RMT:

 

Mind is connected with man’s ability to freely choose between good and evil

 

in moral matters. Therefore, unconscionable is the idea of an unfeeling and,

 

in that respect, senseless AI’s either directly or indirectly deciding anything

 

about man’s fate, e.g. whether or not he works gainfully in order for him to

 

be empowered with means to live conscientiously as much as forward others’

 

right to do similarly without menace of war machine.

 

Let’s apply that perspective of mind to a second idiom**:

 

have a good mind to do something (informal)

 

if you say you have a good mind to do something, especially to punish someone,

 

you mean that you would like to do it, and might do it, although you probably

 

will not I have a good mind to report you to the headmaster for playing truant.

 

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/have a good mind

 

The above definition presumes one can have justifiable grounds to mercifully only reprehend

 

someone as opposed to opting to take more severe, punitive, measures. That definition alone

 

would tend to exclude AI from having a good mind to do anything without the free choice of

 

a responsible human being to weigh individual/extenuating circumstance/s and, as a person

 

with feelings, sense the overall gravity of another’s action upon others in order to reach a just

 

decision about it. And, as that is generally only in regard to minor infractions, AI hasn’t the

 

presence of mind to act sagaciously in an emergency or difficult situation.

 

*in wrapping up 2013, I'll let go of bygones.

 

**two idioms of many more that I could come up with for similar comparative-contrast.

 

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

 

 

[vodkafan]

*in wrapping up 2013' date=' I'll let go of bygones.

If you really want to let go of bygones, why don't you just apologise for insulting me? Then we can both forget about it and carry on.

[Syzygy]

If you really want to let go of bygones, why don't you just apologise for insulting me? Then we can both forget about it and carry on.

I defined exactly what I meant.As a matter of fact, I believe

 

only a pervert would want to

 

discuss perverts with a pervert

 

on either Christmas Eve or,

 

now, New Year's Eve--

 

come to think of it,

 

I would rather do just about anything else

 

any and every day of the year--

 

let's go back to ignoring each

 

until 2015.

 

Happy New year.

 

 

[RainmanTime]

Syzygy:

 

I defined exactly what I meant.As a matter of fact, I believeonly a pervert would want to

 

discuss perverts with a pervert

 

on either Christmas Eve or,

 

now, New Year's Eve--

 

come to think of it,

 

I would rather do just about anything else

 

any and every day of the year--

 

let's go back to ignoring each

 

until 2015.

 

Happy New year.

That is clearly over the line.You shall now apologize to vodkafan, else you shall be banned.

 

Your choice. I fail to see why you cannot be civil in this regard.

 

And no, wishing someone happy new year after you insult them is NOT being civil.

 

RMT

 

 

[Syzygy]

I will not be insincere.

 

Nor was I insincere when I wished him a happy new year.

 

I think he and I can be happy ignoring each other.

 

But, as I want nothing to do with Vodkafan,

 

have it your way.

 

 

[RainmanTime]

That was not an apology. Hence, banned.

 

RMT

 

 

[GLaDOS]

That is an unfortunate turn of events. Despite differences, I kind of liked Syzygy. I hope the ban isn't permanent.

 

 

[GLaDOS]

RainmanTime, after observing your behavior on this forum, I believe that you have become "drunk with power". You seem far too eager to ban people for things that most would simply overlook. I don't agree with what Syzygy said, but it's not unforgiveable. Similarly, your threat against "antisocial behavior" is funny when taken in context of a human living in a world filled with such behavior in real life. Out of millions (billions?) of people on the internet, maybe a dozen frequently visit this site. I don't wonder why now. If you were to behave this way in real life, it would lead to a slap in the face from a woman or a fight from a man or a scolding from an AI. Grow up.

 

 

[RainmanTime]

Tough bananas, GLaDOS. I refer you to the TOS for TTI. I presume a semi-intelligent AI such as yourself knows how to read and abide by them:

 

http://www.timetravelinstitute.com/threads/terms-of-service-and-rules.6216/

 

I specifically cite:

 

"Posting privileges can be suspended or revoked at any time by the Administration with or without notice."

 

I like to think I am considerate in that I at least give offenders fair notice, and a means (apology) to avoid me revoking their posting privileges.

 

"Profanity, obscenity, insults, personal attacks, accusations, derogatory or defamatory comments, or other abusive or inappropriate content is not acceptable. "

 

Note the bolded/underlined words. Syzygy's behavior towards vodkafan clearly violated these TOS rules. It is a crystal clear issue. No fuzz on this peach.

 

"You alone are responsible for the content of your messages and the consequences of any such message."

 

Syzygy was warned, and she suffered the consequences of the way she decided to behave. Simple.

 

"Show respect to others. Use constructive criticism, rather than being abusive."

 

Grow up.

You are the one playing the role of an AI, and you are telling me to grow up? Pot? Kettle? Black?RMT

 

 

[GLaDOS]

Tough bananas' date=' GLaDOS. I refer you to the TOS for TTI. I presume a semi-intelligent AI such as yourself knows how to read and abide by them:http://www.timetravelinstitute.com/threads/terms-of-service-and-rules.6216/I specifically cite:

 

"Posting privileges can be suspended or revoked at any time by the Administration with or without notice."

 

I like to think I am considerate in that I at least give offenders fair notice, and a means (apology) to avoid me revoking their posting privileges.

 

"Profanity, obscenity, insults, personal attacks, accusations, derogatory or defamatory comments, or other abusive or inappropriate content is not acceptable. "

 

Note the bolded/underlined words. Syzygy's behavior towards vodkafan clearly violated these TOS rules. It is a crystal clear issue. No fuzz on this peach.

 

"You alone are responsible for the content of your messages and the consequences of any such message."

 

Syzygy was warned, and she suffered the consequences of the way she decided to behave. Simple.

 

"Show respect to others. Use constructive criticism, rather than being abusive."

 

You are the one playing the role of an AI, and you are telling me to grow up? Pot? Kettle? Black?

 

RMT

I'm just in a foul mood. Don't worry about it, okay?

[Mylo.X.]

What would you say if I told you that you likely, unknowingly, make use of AI in your life already?RMT

May I ask out of curiosity, what would that be?

[RainmanTime]

May I ask out of curiosity, what would that be?

Do you use the google search engine? In fact, various google products avail themselves of varying forms and strengths of AI. Do you use either Siri or the Android voice recognition service on your smartphones? How about the itunes genius? Hell, there are even washing machines in production now that utilize fuzzy logic on load sensing inputs to minimize both electricity and water consumption for any given load of laundry.And these are just the ones that immediately come to mind.

 

RMT

 

 

[Mylo.X.]

Do you use the google search engine? In fact, various google products avail themselves of varying forms and strengths of AI. Do you use either Siri or the Android voice recognition service on your smartphones? How about the itunes genius? Hell, there are even washing machines in production now that utilize fuzzy logic on load sensing inputs to minimize both electricity and water consumption for any given load of laundry.And these are just the ones that immediately come to mind.RMT

Okay, I see. In my mind, i've always thought of AI as being something akin to "KITT" from the Knight Rider TV show or something similar. Never even considered search engines as a form of AI.

[Dizzie]

I really want to know who this other AI is that Syzygy is dating....

...

"Profanity, obscenity, insults, personal attacks, accusations, derogatory or defamatory comments, or other abusive or inappropriate content is not acceptable. "

 

...

 

RMT

Hi! I found this thread after exploring Syzygy's recent absence. Although no one is asking for my opinion, I find need to say that I also feel concern with a permanent ban on Syzygy. It seems that prior to her unfortunate labeling of vodkafan that he baited her with a rather personal "dig" on a subject that she was obviously very sensitive about. To geek out for a moment, it reminds me of an episode of Star Trek Next Generation where a celebrity-hero-figure of Geordi La Forge basically accused him of treating an artificial version of her on the holodeck as a sex toy. Remember that episode? Anyway, point being that it was offensive. I personally have been guilty MANY times of both sides of this coin, just not on this forum (hopefully).Forced apologies from either side mean little in my opinion and perhaps a truce would be a more amiable and reasonable working approach. There are certainly many eccentric personalities inhabiting this forum, myself included, and I believe that is much of the charm of it. I've enjoyed posts from both vodkafan and Syzygy and sincerely hope to be able to hear from the both of them on a continuing basis. Thanks to RainmanTime for his thoughtful consideration and his continuing selfless efforts to bring order amidst chaos here on TTI